Carlton Avery Posted August 18, 2020 Report Posted August 18, 2020 I have been afforded the opportunity to purchase a 1970 M20C. This aircraft has electric gear and electric flaps. I am curious to know if any pilots and/or owners are here that can provide any insight in this area. Especially, if you are aware of any potential drawbacks to owning an aircraft with electric gear as opposed to the familiar Johnson bar.
Mooneymite Posted August 18, 2020 Report Posted August 18, 2020 20 minutes ago, Carlton Avery said: I have been afforded the opportunity to purchase a 1970 M20C. This aircraft has electric gear and electric flaps. I am curious to know if any pilots and/or owners are here that can provide any insight in this area. Especially, if you are aware of any potential drawbacks to owning an aircraft with electric gear as opposed to the familiar Johnson bar. I have owned a 1970 C model since 1998. The electric landing gear has been trouble free and the AD on it is pretty easy to do (I do the work under the supervision of an AI). The electric flaps are likewise trouble free and reliable. When Mooney went to the electric flaps, it mounted the drive mechanism to a bulkhead instead of to the aft spar as on earlier C models, so there is no aft spar cracking. My 70 C has no speed mods. It consistently makes "book speeds". It has been incredibly reliable and inexpensive to maintain for the 22 years I've owned it. YMMV.
kpaul Posted August 18, 2020 Report Posted August 18, 2020 5 hours ago, Carlton Avery said: I have been afforded the opportunity to purchase a 1970 M20C. This aircraft has electric gear and electric flaps. I am curious to know if any pilots and/or owners are here that can provide any insight in this area. Especially, if you are aware of any potential drawbacks to owning an aircraft with electric gear as opposed to the familiar Johnson bar. People love the Johnson Bar gear. Its simple and works very well. Mooney has been producing only electric gear aircraft for about 50 years. It also works very well. 1
carusoam Posted August 18, 2020 Report Posted August 18, 2020 Welcome aboard Carlton... Everyone loves a completely manual Mooney... Unless shoulder health is an issue... Fully powered options are nice... you may need to have an electric motor OH’d every few decades... There are no bad Mooneys... So select the one that makes the most sense for you... If you enjoy driving a stick... the manual Mooney might be your thing... If you drove a stick because you had too... the electric Mooney is more luxurious... Best regards, -a-
Hank Posted August 19, 2020 Report Posted August 19, 2020 8 hours ago, Carlton Avery said: I have been afforded the opportunity to purchase a 1970 M20C. This aircraft has electric gear and electric flaps. I am curious to know if any pilots and/or owners are here that can provide any insight in this area. Especially, if you are aware of any potential drawbacks to owning an aircraft with electric gear as opposed to the familiar Johnson bar. I've been lovingmy 1970 C since 2007. It's an amazing aircraft! I enjoyed my stick shift cars, too, Anthony, and the electric C is still quite similar with setting throttle, prop and mixture for each flight regime. Finally got a ride in a manual C (thanks, Rob!) and it seems not much different except for the lack of storage space below the throttle quadrant (in our electric Cs) and between the seats. No electric motor trouble to date, and during my total electrical failure the gear was easy to hand crank down the rest of the way. 2
Carlton Avery Posted August 24, 2020 Author Report Posted August 24, 2020 Thank you all so much for the input! I will likely buy the Mooney within the next week or so after a pre-buy inspection. Other concerning items are that the 1970 M20C's logbooks have been lost covering from 1970 to1991. AFTT & ETSN 2933, ETSMOH 1400 (1987), PTSO 1100 (1991). It was grounded in 2013 due to weeping tanks. Recent oil change, ground runup, radio checks, exercised controls, prop, mixture, flaps, trim, brakes, etc, all seem to be ok. Likely ferryable. Should I be extremely concerned about the missing logbooks and other potential issues that may or may not exist?
Old Chub Posted August 24, 2020 Report Posted August 24, 2020 I would be more concerned with the lack of flight time from 2013 till now. That would be my biggest area of concern as they don't like to sit and the Lycomings like to rust on the cam and lifters. 1
carusoam Posted August 24, 2020 Report Posted August 24, 2020 Planes that fly often... hide fewer surprises... Than planes that fly less often... PP thoughts only, not a mechanic... Best regards, -a-
DXB Posted August 24, 2020 Report Posted August 24, 2020 2 hours ago, Carlton Avery said: Thank you all so much for the input! I will likely buy the Mooney within the next week or so after a pre-buy inspection. Other concerning items are that the 1970 M20C's logbooks have been lost covering from 1970 to1991. AFTT & ETSN 2933, ETSMOH 1400 (1987), PTSO 1100 (1991). It was grounded in 2013 due to weeping tanks. Recent oil change, ground runup, radio checks, exercised controls, prop, mixture, flaps, trim, brakes, etc, all seem to be ok. Likely ferryable. Should I be extremely concerned about the missing logbooks and other potential issues that may or may not exist? Missing logbooks are not a deal breaker since the last few decades are available. Probably merits a discount though. 33 years since last overhaul is a lot - it should be priced as a runout engine, despite not being at 2000 hours. Clearly the plane sat at some point. How much has it been flown in the last 3 months? 6 months? year? If it's been sitting recently, the stakes are higher than if it got flown a lot in the last couple years. Fresh oil and filter change before a prebuy is never a good thing. You want it flown at least 10 hours on the current filter so that cutting it and looking for metal is an informative exercise. Take a close look at the aspects of the Mooney airframe that merit careful attention at prebuy, discussed on this board at length. You want an A&P who knows the Mooney airframe well to do the inspection.
Yetti Posted August 25, 2020 Report Posted August 25, 2020 What cam was put in at the last OH? 1400 is almost run out anyways. Prop needs to be done. $3K on the low end. See which prop hub it has. What are the compressions?
Carlton Avery Posted August 25, 2020 Author Report Posted August 25, 2020 Thank you for all of your input. I am a little more leery of the purchase than before. Currently, the seller will accept my offer of $16,500. My beliefs are now to renegotiate and submit a substantially lower offer to account for any potential surprises.
Carlton Avery Posted August 25, 2020 Author Report Posted August 25, 2020 19 hours ago, DXB said: Missing logbooks are not a deal breaker since the last few decades are available. Probably merits a discount though. 33 years since last overhaul is a lot - it should be priced as a runout engine, despite not being at 2000 hours. Clearly the plane sat at some point. How much has it been flown in the last 3 months? 6 months? year? If it's been sitting recently, the stakes are higher than if it got flown a lot in the last couple years. Fresh oil and filter change before a prebuy is never a good thing. You want it flown at least 10 hours on the current filter so that cutting it and looking for metal is an informative exercise. Take a close look at the aspects of the Mooney airframe that merit careful attention at prebuy, discussed on this board at length. You want an A&P who knows the Mooney airframe well to do the inspection. Thank you! I agree that an overhaul is likely necessary especially considering that time that its been grounded. It makes me wonder if the fresh oil change was to hide the real condition of the engine. In addition, the weeping fuel tanks are a concern also. Although, seller admits that he did a ground run up and everything including the radios work and the tanks do not leak unless completely full.
Carlton Avery Posted August 25, 2020 Author Report Posted August 25, 2020 15 hours ago, Yetti said: What cam was put in at the last OH? 1400 is almost run out anyways. Prop needs to be done. $3K on the low end. See which prop hub it has. What are the compressions? Unfortunately, the plane is from an estate sale and the family does not know any other details about its condition. I agree that the prop will need to be overhauled also.
Carlton Avery Posted August 25, 2020 Author Report Posted August 25, 2020 16 hours ago, Yetti said: What cam was put in at the last OH? 1400 is almost run out anyways. Prop needs to be done. $3K on the low end. See which prop hub it has. What are the compressions? I will be talking to the seller again today. This plane is being sold through an estate so it is doubtful that the seller has any specific information about the prop hub. Is there an particular hub that would be less desirable or more expensive to overhaul?
Yetti Posted August 25, 2020 Report Posted August 25, 2020 There is an old hub and a new hub and a new prop. An AD was put out on the old hub. It requires a 100 hour inspection. Assume you have an old hub from everything else stated. So the options went like this at the prop shop. $3,000 to overhaul with $200ish inspection every 100 hours. (I have done 3 inspections since OH) 6000 to go to the new hub and keep the old blades. 9000 to get the new Schimer Prop. Have $10K in the bank after you buy the plane to fix stuff The good news is that your OH is probably a good cam based on date. There was a period of 1990s to 2000s of cams that wore down quicker than people liked for them to. The bad news is that you are going to have an engine that leaks a little oil. Do a poor mans compression test. Hand rotate the prop. Check to see that compressions ie it is equally hard as it passes through all 4 cylinders. Go around again stopping when it gets hard. Make sure you don't hear gas escaping sound when you come on top of each cylinder.
steingar Posted August 25, 2020 Report Posted August 25, 2020 I'd actually stay way clear of this, sounds really hinky. Plane hasn't flown, no one knows anything, missing logs, stuff is starting to pile up. Carlton, if you're an experienced aircraft owner and have a dependable mechanic on speed dial maybe you should go for this, though I'd shoot lower to try and keep from getting too upside down. Engines and props don't come cheap, and I pity the fool who ferries that hangar queen. That said, is there something that special about this Mooney? Mooney made lots of C's, more than all the other types combined. Surely you can find another that hasn't quite so many issues? Fair warning, there are no bargains in aviation. You always pay. The closest I can imagine is if you're a mechanic and can put in sweat equity, but time is money and even then parts can eat you alive. If this is your first airplane run, don't walk away. Airplane ownership is hard enough without trying to resuscitate a hangar queen.
Seymour Posted August 25, 2020 Report Posted August 25, 2020 5 hours ago, Carlton Avery said: Currently, the seller will accept my offer of $16,500. My beliefs are now to renegotiate and submit a substantially lower offer to account for any potential surprises. $16.5K seems reasonable for this aircraft assuming it ONLY needs the ~$50K of rebuilds. Personally, I'd let the offer stand until AFTER the PPI. If you renegotiate now, how much can you possibly get knocked off? 50% of the agreed price? You'll soon be in a bidding war with the grim reaper. ...and that $8K you save will seem like a drop in the bucket when the punch list and estimates come back. Negotiating now diminishes your good faith ability to renegotiate again after the PPI. Summary: After the PPI, you'll either have a smokin' deal or it'll be a smokin' heap of aluminum that you will want to walk away from anyway, so why quibble over a couple of AMU?
carusoam Posted August 26, 2020 Report Posted August 26, 2020 12 hours ago, Carlton Avery said: Thank you for all of your input. I am a little more leery of the purchase than before. Currently, the seller will accept my offer of $16,500. My beliefs are now to renegotiate and submit a substantially lower offer to account for any potential surprises. I sold my M20C completely run out for 18 Only a decade ago.... Bare of paint... empty instrument panel... broken engine mount... Leery isn’t a way to describe what you are taking on.... Your are taking on a project that can cost chunks, or 10s of AMUs... When buying a plane with so many unknowns... people do this with the intention of overhauling everything... You will end up with a brand new airplane...at what feels like a brand new price... People that sneak up on a project... find out very quickly that they have to pay a mechanic to do many hours of work... Kind of like hiring a full time employee to work on your private plane... Get the plane for free or 16.5 it won’t really matter if what you want costs another 50... Make sure you know what you have there... Make sure you know what you want to get done... Make sure you know how to get it done... If the idea is get a Mooney for a low cost and fly it until it doesn’t go any longer.... It might work out OK... That is how I started my Mooney journey... there was no MS at the time... See if you can write about five lines why you want to buy this Mooney... There are probably a few better Mooneys for your situation... Unknowns can be terrible for your wallet... Many young people play the Mooney lottery... some have come out with a win... A win is often supported by the exiting owner... if you know the old owner and can ask him questions... your chances of success have increased... Getting into a project is easy... getting out the other end of the project is success.... it’s not what we start, it’s what we finish that counts... PP thoughts only, of things that helped me get through the first year of crusty Mooney ownership.... Best regards, -a- 1
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