Smoke Released - Possible Upgrade

[LevelWing]

Yesterday morning when I went to pre-flight the plane, my old KNS-80 died. I let the smoke out. Given that it's old and I was looking for an excuse to put a GPS in to begin with, this might be a good time to do it. I'm looking for some options on an upgrade path that flow and make sense. Right now I'm not able to continue instrument training because I can only do a VOR or LOC approach.

Thanks to @chriscalandro for all the help yesterday. I spent a while with Chris yesterday reviewing the options and what we came up with is below. I've also included a picture of my panel. This is a 1968 M20C model. I have a Garmin GDL-82 installed for ADS-B that connects to my KT-76a transponder.

I called Sarasota Avionics who gave me a quote of around $18,000 for the Garmin 650xi plus a new CDI. Apparently the 650xi will only work with either the GI-206b or the new GI-275.

Option 1: Garmin 650xi with (likely) a GI-275. This provides a solid platform and I can use the 275 as an HSI/CDI with the 650xi providing the navigation sources via either GPS or VOR/ILS/LOC. The downside is that if I install the GI-275 I'm basically heading down a path of installing more GI-275's since it wouldn't be worth it to then install a G3X or something because of the similar functionality, though there is a cost difference to consider.

Option 2: Garmin 650xi with a G3X system. This eliminates the need for the GI-206b or the GI-275 and adds other functionality, like engine monitoring functions that I don't currently have. 

I am not limiting myself to Garmin options (and not just new products, either). Since I have a GDL-82, it kind of makes sense because they will all play nicely together. Will the GDL-82 play nicely with other products? The SkyView is a really nice looking setup. The only concern I have with it is the lack of auto pilot support, which isn't released yet. For those that have the Avidyne IFD 440, how do you like it now that you've had a chance to use it for a while?

Thanks for your thoughts.

[donkaye, MCFI]

3 hours ago, LevelWing said:

Yesterday morning when I went to pre-flight the plane, my old KNS-80 died. I let the smoke out. Given that it's old and I was looking for an excuse to put a GPS in to begin with, this might be a good time to do it. I'm looking for some options on an upgrade path that flow and make sense. Right now I'm not able to continue instrument training because I can only do a VOR or LOC approach.

Thanks to @chriscalandro for all the help yesterday. I spent a while with Chris yesterday reviewing the options and what we came up with is below. I've also included a picture of my panel. This is a 1968 M20C model. I have a Garmin GDL-82 installed for ADS-B that connects to my KT-76a transponder.

I called Sarasota Avionics who gave me a quote of around $18,000 for the Garmin 650xi plus a new CDI. Apparently the 650xi will only work with either the GI-206b or the new GI-275.

Option 1: Garmin 650xi with (likely) a GI-275. This provides a solid platform and I can use the 275 as an HSI/CDI with the 650xi providing the navigation sources via either GPS or VOR/ILS/LOC. The downside is that if I install the GI-275 I'm basically heading down a path of installing more GI-275's since it wouldn't be worth it to then install a G3X or something because of the similar functionality, though there is a cost difference to consider.

Option 2: Garmin 650xi with a G3X system. This eliminates the need for the GI-206b or the GI-275 and adds other functionality, like engine monitoring functions that I don't currently have. 

I am not limiting myself to Garmin options (and not just new products, either). Since I have a GDL-82, it kind of makes sense because they will all play nicely together. Will the GDL-82 play nicely with other products? The SkyView is a really nice looking setup. The only concern I have with it is the lack of auto pilot support, which isn't released yet. For those that have the Avidyne IFD 440, how do you like it now that you've had a chance to use it for a while?

Thanks for your thoughts.

Any way you look at it you will need either the GI275 or G5 if you are going to fly IFR and install a G3X.  You really are going to need a new panel fabricated, since your current panel is not  a T configuration.   If you plan on keeping the M20C indefinitely and don't mind over improving it, then the large flat panel G3X with backup G5 and GTN 650Xi would transform your airplane into a modern day wonder and set it up for the GFC 500 if you ever wanted to add a full function autopilot.

For less money, but to prep for a future autopilot, you could do 2 G5s or for more money 2 GI275 and in either case the GTN 650 Xi.  You would still need to fabricate a new panel.

To get rid of the engine instruments you would additionally add either a JPI or EI engine monitor, or a Garmin EIS.  For "cheap" ADS-B In, you'll need one of the GDL 50 series receivers.

Regarding Garmin or Avidyne, although many on this list love their Avidyne products, to date I still haven't had one student who has had one, and before Covid I was pretty much teaching full time.  As many on this forum know, though, I'm rather pro Garmin, having gone full Garmin 7 years ago, and have upgraded every time a new Garmin product has come out that looks interesting.

[steingar]

Of course, you could get another KNS80 and slide it in real cheap...

 

[donkaye, MCFI]

Just now, steingar said:

Of course, you could get another KNS80 and slide it in real cheap...

 

If you're an Instrument rated pilot, its time to get a WAAS GPS and be able to fly approaches to nearly all airports in the US rather than be limited to airports with only surface based equipment.

[chriscalandro]

Careful, people around here are going to get the impression that I’m helpful...

[MIm20c]

8 hours ago, LevelWing said:

I called Sarasota Avionics who gave me a quote of around $18,000 for the Garmin 650xi plus a new CDI. Apparently the 650xi will only work with either the GI-206b or the new GI-275.

I’d find a used 650 and buy two G5’s. If you look hard and find a reasonably priced installer / IA you could have all of it installed in a new left panel for around $18k. 

[Skates97]

You could also go with the GNC 355, it is a GPS/COM, no NAV. Check the airports that you are flying into, more and more have GPS approaches.

$7,695 for a GNC 355 and a GI 106B

https://sarasotaavionics.com/gnc355-gi106b-kit

[khedrei]

I'm a bit late here... but I have a used and working KNS 80 with your name on it for 200 shipped! Much cheaper than all this crazy new garmin stuff you speak of...

 

[LevelWing]

10 hours ago, donkaye said:

Any way you look at it you will need either the GI275 or G5 if you are going to fly IFR and install a G3X.  You really are going to need a new panel fabricated, since your current panel is not  a T configuration.   If you plan on keeping the M20C indefinitely and don't mind over improving it, then the large flat panel G3X with backup G5 and GTN 650Xi would transform your airplane into a modern day wonder and set it up for the GFC 500 if you ever wanted to add a full function autopilot.

For less money, but to prep for a future autopilot, you could do 2 G5s or for more money 2 GI275 and in either case the GTN 650 Xi.  You would still need to fabricate a new panel.

To get rid of the engine instruments you would additionally add either a JPI or EI engine monitor, or a Garmin EIS.  For "cheap" ADS-B In, you'll need one of the GDL 50 series receivers.

Regarding Garmin or Avidyne, although many on this list love their Avidyne products, to date I still haven't had one student who has had one, and before Covid I was pretty much teaching full time.  As many on this forum know, though, I'm rather pro Garmin, having gone full Garmin 7 years ago, and have upgraded every time a new Garmin product has come out that looks interesting.

The G5s are an interesting idea. The G5s would require a new panel, but not the GI-275 as that should be a drop in replacement since it's the same size. I was steering, generally anyway, away from the G5s since they are a different size. Is it required as a backup to a 650xi?

10 hours ago, steingar said:

Of course, you could get another KNS80 and slide it in real cheap...

 

No, at this point it's time to upgrade to a GPS.

2 hours ago, Skates97 said:

You could also go with the GNC 355, it is a GPS/COM, no NAV. Check the airports that you are flying into, more and more have GPS approaches.

$7,695 for a GNC 355 and a GI 106B

https://sarasotaavionics.com/gnc355-gi106b-kit

That's an interesting idea as well. Will it still interface with a G3X or a GI-275 later on? I'm looking at long term upgrade/scalability options. I guess I haven't really thought about it, but how many navigational radios are standard in aircraft these days? I had two but that's because that's what came with it when I bought it. I suppose one navigational radio from the KX-155 would be sufficient as a backup in case I go somewhere that doesn't have a GPS approach or I need to shoot a VOR/LOC/ILS.

2 hours ago, khedrei said:

I'm a bit late here... but I have a used and working KNS 80 with your name on it for 200 shipped! Much cheaper than all this crazy new garmin stuff you speak of...

 

I appreciate the offer, but I think I'm going to stick with the GPS route. It's a good excuse to step into the 21st century. 

[chriscalandro]

You don’t want to lose the radio nav I think. I went down that road already. 
 

didn’t think of the G5, should fit in an existing hole. You’re then going down the Garmin PFD route still. 

[MIm20c]

A new left panel would be a small worthwhile investment if you are upgrading to a g5 or 275.  I’d keep at least one nav head in the panel. If the 355 looks good to you keep your other nav/com. 

[LevelWing]

16 hours ago, MIm20c said:

A new left panel would be a small worthwhile investment if you are upgrading to a g5 or 275.  I’d keep at least one nav head in the panel. If the 355 looks good to you keep your other nav/com. 

I'm pretty certain that if I tried to re-organize the panel the A&P who installed it would lose his mind with how messy it probably is back there. I'm curious how many people have dual navigation radios in their planes instead of just one?

Edited August 2, 2020 by LevelWing

[khedrei]

1 hour ago, LevelWing said:

I'm pretty certain that if I tried to re-organize the panel the A&P who installed it would lose his mind with how messy it probably is back there. I'm curious how many people have dual navigation radios in their planes instead of just one?

In Canada we pretty much have to. We need 2 separate nav instruments/radios and we need the ability on board to fly an approach at an alternate should we lose a navigation instrument.  So if your alternate has an ILS/LOC then you need to have a second nav radio in case your first fails. Or you cant take credit for the  ILS being there when filing.

That being said this doesn't apply south of the boarder but I have no idea why anyone would buy a GPS comm radio and skip out on the NAV function to save a couple grand. Are Mooney owners that cheap?

[khedrei]

Also... I think the G5 will slide in the same hole as another poster mentioned. 

To answer your above question the G5 backs up the G500 Txi or the G3X. It also drives the GFC 500 AP if you get one down the road. You will need 2 of them if you want your future AP to follow a GPS nav course. One will run the AP in heading/track and VS mode but you need the second to follow a GPS. The 650 doesnt need a back up but I would like to know I have a second nav/com if it were to fail.

[Niko182]

Id do a gnc355, an SL30 or a GNC255, and 2 g5's. That gives you 2 CDI's with GS, 2 AI's, 2 DG's, LPV, and ILS capability. Get rid of the vacuum, and cut a new panel. The G5 allows you to use 2 signals, so id take advantage of that.

[LevelWing]

3 hours ago, khedrei said:

In Canada we pretty much have to. We need 2 separate nav instruments/radios and we need the ability on board to fly an approach at an alternate should we lose a navigation instrument.  So if your alternate has an ILS/LOC then you need to have a second nav radio in case your first fails. Or you cant take credit for the  ILS being there when filing.

That being said this doesn't apply south of the boarder but I have no idea why anyone would buy a GPS comm radio and skip out on the NAV function to save a couple grand. Are Mooney owners that cheap?

It's not about being cheap, it's about achieving the necessary end state. If a Garmin 355 does that, then that's fine. If it doesn't, then that's fine too. It's why I asked the question about the necessity of redundant navigation radios.

3 hours ago, Niko182 said:

Id do a gnc355, an SL30 or a GNC255, and 2 g5's. That gives you 2 CDI's with GS, 2 AI's, 2 DG's, LPV, and ILS capability. Get rid of the vacuum, and cut a new panel. The G5 allows you to use 2 signals, so id take advantage of that.

It gives you two CDIs but only one navigation radio which brings me back to my question above. I'm starting to lean towards having two navigation radios for redundancy which puts me back in the Garmin 650xi or Avidyne IFD 440 area.

[Niko182]

Just now, LevelWing said:

It gives you two CDIs but only one navigation radio which brings me back to my question above. I'm starting to lean towards having two navigation radios for redundancy which puts me back in the Garmin 650xi or Avidyne IFD 440 area.

It gives you GPS and VOR capabilities. In this time you really dont need dual Navs anymore. After getting LPV capabilities, i havent used my nav in quite a while. Nearly every airport has an RNAV approach. If the GPS fails, its not hard to find an airport with ILS vVOR capabilities. 1 GPS and 1 Nav systems are more than redundant enough.

[khedrei]

It's my understanding that a 650 satisfies the redundancy requirements for IFR in the US. The fact that GPS will give you nav and approach capabilities and your VOR/VLOC will do the same if the GPS fails because they are separate systems. That being said, if the unit/display fails you are up shi+$ creek. If you already have a second nav radio I would keep it. If you dont, spend 1500 on a tried and true KX155 and enjoy having a second nav and second com. 

My 2 sense

[LevelWing]

I went to an avionics shop yesterday and sat down with them. The guy there recommended going with a Garmin 175 and a Garmin GNC-225 which would provide the GPS and a second NAV/COM radio. That is less than a 650xi installed and around the same as the Avidyne IFD 440 installed. It looks like these are probably the best options to choose from at this point.

I assume a CDI can be shared by multiple sources with the proper connections?

[LevelWing]

21 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

Looking at your existing panel as is.  You have space for a IFD540 or ??possibly?? A gtn 750 (not sure on size on that one).on the right hand side, if you lose the adf, and move the transponder to the main stack.  
 

On the left side if you are doing some real IFR flying you really need to tidy that instrument cluster or you will make your IMC flying more difficult than it needs to be.  When installing new instruments make sure that in the dark clouds you can still see the numbers on them.  The G5 for example has quite small numbers on it for older eyes. Something to think about.  
 

  Re avidyne  IFDs are great devices, ive played with a couple over the past year and their functionality is outstanding, also easier to use in turbulence than a 750. (Which ive also played with). 
 

Andrew

Thanks, but a IFD 540/GTN 750 isn't in the plan. I fully intend to re-organize the panel at some point, but I don't want to do that until I decide on a way forward (see above reference later panel upgrades like a G3X or SkyView).

@gsxrpilot What would you suggest? I haven't seen your panel yet but I did enjoy flying your C when you had it.

[gsxrpilot]

2 hours ago, LevelWing said:

What would you suggest? I haven't seen your panel yet but I did enjoy flying your C when you had it.

Well I don't have the C any longer, but have done quite a bit of work on the panel of the K I fly now.

Here's what it looks like.

As much as I like Aspen and Avidyne... I probably wouldn't go that direction until the autopilot situation is sorted out.

I like the GI275's or the G5's. But if it were mine, I'd probably go Dynon and Avidyne. Of course the Dynon autopilot isn't ready yet and who knows when it will be.

[MIm20c]

@gsxrpilot I thought you upgraded to the dual max setup?  Old picture?

[gsxrpilot]

Just now, MIm20c said:

@gsxrpilot I thought you upgraded to the dual max setup?  Old picture?

The second MAX is still sitting on the shelf in the box. I have it, but haven't installed it yet. Installing it will take a new panel... if cutting a new panel I want to remove the ASI and ALT... but I need the ALT for my altitude pre-select... if I put a new autopilot in, then I might not need the separate pre-select with the altimeter... So I need an autopilot solution before starting the process. If I don't have a solution by fall, I might just move forward with the second MAX and keep the altimeter.

[khedrei]

6 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

Re avidyne  IFDs are great devices, ive played with a couple over the past year and their functionality is outstanding, also easier to use in turbulence than a 750. (Which ive also played with). 
 

Andrew

I would strongly disagree with this. I have used both in turbulance and while the Avidyne is a nice unit, the Garmin 750 is much more turbulent friendly. The "ledges" to stabalize your hand are easier to use and the detents on the knobs when changing frequencies are much more robust. Similar to the 430 but nicer feeling and a bit less clicky. The 540 I found it was too easy to scroll too fast fast a frequency because the knob was too sensitive. It just glided through.  The layout of the touchscreen was also not friendly in turbulance. Buttons were too small and not as easy to select in turbulance. Found myself hitting the wrong button or having to press it twice because i missed it the first time. 

To each their own I guess. 

[gsxrpilot]

Just now, khedrei said:

I would strongly disagree with this. I have used both in turbulance and while the Avidyne is a nice unit, the Garmin 750 is much more turbulent friendly. The "ledges" to stabalize your hand are easier to use and the detents on the knobs when changing frequencies are much more robust. Similar to the 430 but nicer feeling and a bit less clicky. The 540 I found it was too easy to scroll too fast fast a frequency because the knob was too sensitive. It just glided through.  The layout of the touchscreen was also not friendly in turbulance. Buttons were too small and not as easy to select in turbulance. Found myself hitting the wrong button or having to press it twice because i missed it the first time. 

To each their own I guess. 

Living here in Denver where it's a washing machine every afternoon, I've got a whole new respect for turbulence. The Avidyne keyboard is a game changer in turbulence. It's easy to hold in your hands and type with your thumbs. You can control all features of the IFD's using the bluetooth keyboard. Strap the seatbelt tight and let the airplane bounce, swing, and roll around you. Meanwhile you're running coms, nav, flight plans, amending routes, checking weather, METARS, even changing the SiriusXM music channel... all with the keyboard in the palm of your hand. There's no need to "hold onto the ledge" around the GPS to try and steady your hand while repeatedly touching the wrong thing on the screen.