Andy95W Posted June 28, 2020 Report Share Posted June 28, 2020 A good way to PPI avionics and the current owner is to have them fly the airplane first with you, the buyer, sitting in the right seat. This gives you the opportunity to test all the avionics in flight without trying to fly at the same time, and also to see how the current owner treats his bird. After that you switch seats and continue the test flight process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLRDMD Posted June 28, 2020 Report Share Posted June 28, 2020 9 hours ago, V1VRV2 said: How did that turn out for you? Not being a smart @ss either. As a fishing charter business owner who hired captains I learned quickly to ask during the interview to have a look at the prospective new hires car. How they treated their car was how they were going to take care of the boat. Direct correlation every time! I remember one owner of a Mooney that I was looking at years ago. He proudly stated that he always flew the airplane 50ºROP. The conversation was over at that point. Pre-buy on the owner accomplished, no need to spend the money on a pre-buy of the airplane. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles K Posted July 1, 2020 Report Share Posted July 1, 2020 An interesting point that’s brought up in this thread just got a Pre-purchase evaluation sheet back from one of the Mooney service centers in FL and thought the list would be more than 25 items long. Don’t get me wrong; some of the items are probably more intense than others; just first glance at the list made me think. It is a flat rate of $860 and anything extra $115 an hour; they need the bird relocated obviously and for three days. This is a little different than the quote from a center in CO, $1,470, and $105 an hour plus parts. I will agree; seeing how one treats their toys will say a lot about how the MX is conducted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentonck Posted July 1, 2020 Report Share Posted July 1, 2020 There is a lot of difference between a pre-buy and an annual. Pre-buy will catch all kinds of stuff that will not be included in annual. They will look for the obvious airworthiness stuff but you will get a complete report, such as: -Broken buttons on the avionics -Seat tears or worn carpet, stains on the headliner, worn door seals, just a myriad of little details and annual would never deal with. It's worth the cost and gives you a lot to negotiate when you go to close the deal.... Definately worth the cost to get another pair of (trained) eyes on the airplane. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles K Posted July 1, 2020 Report Share Posted July 1, 2020 No issues or complaints there, it's a small investment on such a return. I am tracking the difference though, working with maintainers conducting regular to phase MX on larger birds. As mentioned the list initially looked simple but figured there was more to it. Thanks for the feedback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toto Posted July 1, 2020 Report Share Posted July 1, 2020 2 hours ago, Bentonck said: There is a lot of difference between a pre-buy and an annual. Pre-buy will catch all kinds of stuff that will not be included in annual. They will look for the obvious airworthiness stuff but you will get a complete report, such as: -Broken buttons on the avionics -Seat tears or worn carpet, stains on the headliner, worn door seals, just a myriad of little details and annual would never deal with. It's worth the cost and gives you a lot to negotiate when you go to close the deal.... Definately worth the cost to get another pair of (trained) eyes on the airplane. This is an interesting perspective. My limited experience with pre-buy inspections is more "look for the deal-killers." It never occurred to me to ask about cosmetic stuff, but I can see how that might be a useful list to have in your back pocket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted July 1, 2020 Report Share Posted July 1, 2020 Paint 20AMU Interior 20AMU Fully modern IP 100AMU None of these would be covered in depth while looking at AW issues... In a hangar... The amount of things you want to test is limited by the amount of AMUs you want to spend on a PPI... If you are spending house dollars... use an inclusive PPI... If you are spending car dollars... decide what is included in your PPI and what is excluded... PP thoughts only... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOH Posted July 2, 2020 Report Share Posted July 2, 2020 1 hour ago, toto said: This is an interesting perspective. My limited experience with pre-buy inspections is more "look for the deal-killers." It never occurred to me to ask about cosmetic stuff, but I can see how that might be a useful list to have in your back pocket. That would have never occurred to me, either, prior to buying my first plane. However, when shopping one of the planes I was looking at made it all the way to PPI...and the A&P asked me, "So, do you want me to do this as "deal-killers" or as a "negotiation" inspection." As the seller and I had already agreed on a price, I thought it would be pretty chicken-shit of me to then run back with a list of 'gotchas' just to drive down the price. So, I told the mechanic to look for only deal-killers. Unfortunately, he found one: the oil pump impeller AD. Neither I nor the seller wanted to pay for the inspection so I walked. Someday, when I have to sell this is an important lesson. I'm going to be crystal clear with a prospective buyer: You can look the plane over all you want, we will agree on a price, and then you are welcome to an airworthiness ONLY PPI with a dollar limit for repairs. The rest is on the buyer. I'm NOT going to be set up by some putz that's planning on driving down the negotiated sales price with a laundry list that he has his mechanic gen up during PPI. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted July 2, 2020 Report Share Posted July 2, 2020 Some things are getting somewhat out of order... 1) Used machines have plenty of variation... 2) The seller has a price and a description with pics of what is for sale... 3) The buyer has a price he is willing to pay... and any technique he can conjure up why he should pay less than offered... 4) The PPI is to confirm everything in the description meets what the plane actually is... 5) Remember... the seller doesn’t have to sell to anyone he doesn’t like.... 6) Competition keeps the funny tire kicking from occurring.... 7) All it takes is one other serious buyer to ruin the fun of negotiations... 8) A serious buyer will often write out what the deal includes, what the agreed upon price is, and what the next steps are going to be.... this is called a ‘purchasing agreement’. 9) If you like hand shakes and not writing things down... and don’t have a photographic memory that lasts for months.... you will need to be forgiving when you can’t remember correctly if something was included or not.... 10) If you think you can lower the price because you found something in the PPI that you didn’t discuss.... 11) There is a time to do the due diligence, a time to negotiate, and a time where inspection occurs... 12) When the PPI fails... Usually for an AW issue... it is simply how to get it fixed, and who is going to fix it... or take it as is with a new agreed upon price... 13) As the buyer... you just spent AMUs on having a PPI done... it wouldn’t make sense to start negotiating a new price without some friendly knowledge... you may have even left some earnest money to hold your place in line... 14) It takes both the buyer and seller working together to successfully complete this transaction... often the PPI is guaranteed by a pre-payment of some form... this way if the buyer flakes out... the mechanic gets paid to finish putting everything back properly... 15) There is still honor in the system... honor works. 16) There are still going to be be flakey people... flakiness doesn’t usually get the job done.... 17) Small claims court is often a part of the flaky purchaser/seller program... Buying a machine isn’t always going to be easy... Getting the lowest price isn’t always the important Part... A price needs to be paid... so get the most for your money... PP thoughts only, I may have sold a machine or two... Best regards, -a- 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentonck Posted July 2, 2020 Report Share Posted July 2, 2020 14 hours ago, MikeOH said: That would have never occurred to me, either, prior to buying my first plane. However, when shopping one of the planes I was looking at made it all the way to PPI...and the A&P asked me, "So, do you want me to do this as "deal-killers" or as a "negotiation" inspection." As the seller and I had already agreed on a price, I thought it would be pretty chicken-shit of me to then run back with a list of 'gotchas' just to drive down the price. So, I told the mechanic to look for only deal-killers. Unfortunately, he found one: the oil pump impeller AD. Neither I nor the seller wanted to pay for the inspection so I walked. Someday, when I have to sell this is an important lesson. I'm going to be crystal clear with a prospective buyer: You can look the plane over all you want, we will agree on a price, and then you are welcome to an airworthiness ONLY PPI with a dollar limit for repairs. The rest is on the buyer. I'm NOT going to be set up by some putz that's planning on driving down the negotiated sales price with a laundry list that he has his mechanic gen up during PPI. It seems like what I said has been taken out of perspective. I have purchased two planes, a Mooney and a Cirrus. Both used. The Mooney we agreed on a price and I took it to a pre-buy, had a list of 15 squawks, none of which grounded the plane but one of which (the exhaust SB) I felt should be done. And the #2 VOR was out. He offered to pay for he #2 VOR and I agreed to take care of the SB out of pocket. The Cirrus I am buying currently with Steve, who has been on this forum, and the list was quite extensive as the plane was flown under a lease back arrangement and saw little in the way of TLC apparently. None of the issues were show stoppers but there were a lot. We got a quote to get all the work done to bring the plane up to a "new-used" plane standard and we agreed with the owner to split it down the middle. The total, including 4 airworthiness items, was $7500 and we agreed to pick up half each. I mean, if someone tells you he's selling a 2-3 year old car in great shape and you show up and the headliner is hanging down and the the leather seats are ripped, you might want to take that into account even if you had already asked him if he'd take less than the listed price. Noone is obliged to sell, and noone is obliged to buy. This is definately case-by-case. When I sell a car, boat, or plane, I'm just always as up-front as can be as to what kind of condition I think it's in and give them the squawk list up front, but most sellers don't. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steingar Posted July 2, 2020 Report Share Posted July 2, 2020 Has the OP checked with his insurer on what it would cost to insure his Mooney as a student pilot? I can't imagine that number would be terribly low. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisinorf Posted July 11, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2020 On 7/2/2020 at 1:37 PM, steingar said: Has the OP checked with his insurer on what it would cost to insure his Mooney as a student pilot? I can't imagine that number would be terribly low. Good question and thanks for all of the insight. Insurance is something I do need to consider before buying a recreational vehicle. Paying for the aircraft is easy, but I understand that the hourly costs are similar to owning a BOAT (break out another thousand). I knew this hobby wasn't going to be cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted July 12, 2020 Report Share Posted July 12, 2020 things to consider while buying a plane... Some things can get tuned with experience. Some are easier for some people. Some are unique individual challenges. Some are challenging. Some get easier with some help. Don’t be afraid to ask questions. Don’t wait... some things, the sooner you start the sooner you find a solution... 1) Price 2) place to keep it 3) insurance 4) third class Medical or Basic med PP thoughts only... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted July 12, 2020 Report Share Posted July 12, 2020 Assuming I'm looking to buy an airworthy airplane, and if you're selling an airworthy airplane, then the PPI to verify that it is indeed airworthy. If the PPI uncovers an airworthy issue, the seller will rectify it or I'll find another airplane. I'm not renegotiating to now buy an un-airworthy airplane. I will ask the questions, and would expect the seller to disclose anything that doesn't work. i.e. the GS on the 2nd CDI doesn't work. Or the Recog Lights switch is broken. Or something similar... But I would expect to test all of this myself during a test flight with the seller prior to sending it to pre-buy. If I've never flown a Mooney and don't know what to look for or ask, I would ask someone more knowledgeable to come along on the test flight or look the plane over for me. But this is not a pre-buy and doesn't require a mechanic or shop. So if during the pre-buy, the shop comes back with a list of broken switches, rips and tears in upholstery, chipped paint, etc... so what. This doesn't change anything, it's a used airplane, and none of those are airworthy items. If I do chose to walk away based on that list, I do so without my deposit. If the PPI uncovers an airworthy issue such as an SB not complied with or dented landing gear linkage, a cracked exhaust, etc. the seller will cover the cost or I walk away with my deposit and go find a actual airworthy airplane to buy. *One note to this process. Prior to sending the airplane to a PPI, I'd send the logs to Laura at SWTA along with about $250. No does a more thorough review of logs than Laura, and it might save you the cost of the PPI. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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