Be Careful Garmin - iPad Killer?

[PTK]

Quote: danb35

It's also important to remember that the app developers can add features to the iPad apps whenever they want.  The only thing the 796 does that the iPad simply can't do is integrate the XM receiver in the same box--with the iPad, it will be two separate (and somewhat bulky) devices in addition to the iPad itself.  OTOH, the iPad 2 has gyros built in, so it's entirely possible that a backup panel display could be coded that would be superior to any of the Garmin portables.

As it stands now, the 796 is a better in-flight navigator, and the iPad is a better EFB.  But the navigation functions can be added to the iPad if somebody codes them, and the EFB functions can't be added to the 796.

[M016576]

I would love to see Apple venture into avionics... but I don't think it will happen. What makes their products "affordable" is the mass market appeal. GA has too many rules/certs/tsos and not enough of a market to make it profitable. That's probably why the prices on garmin products are so high...

I like the ipad options, and I still use foreflight v2.4.1 on my iphone. I wish I could get it for my ipad. Why? because I paid the 70 bucks, and I don't have to pay a "yearly subscription fee." I still get all the plate updates and flight plan filing functionality...

I wish Foreflight would have stuck with the flat rate pricing.. as it is now, at 150 bucks a year for the "pro" version, plus the initial cost of a ipad with GPS (~800), it doesn't take long to reach the price of a Aera 560... and those things are pretty nice!

granted, the iPad does other things... but so does my iPhone.... and it's easier to carry the iphone

Ok.. so I'm just self-justifying my decisions/monetary situation in regards to GPS's! hey, we each have our reasons, right?!

[jetdriven]

Peter, the Foreflight with bad elf is just as accurate as my aera 500 which has an active external antenna.  Both are about a 3 meter estimated positon error.

Quote: allsmiles

I think you are making some very huge assumptions. It's not as easy as you think, just writing the software. The iPad hardware is simply not aviation specific as the 796. I'll give you an example: a friend of mine has the iPad with georeferenced Foreflight on it. As a rule it is way off! My old Garmin GPSMAP195 is a lot more accurate!

The 796 is a full EFB! What EFB functions are you referring to?

[MARZ]

Quote: M016576

I like the ipad options, and I still use foreflight v2.4.1 on my iphone. I wish I could get it for my ipad. Why? because I paid the 70 bucks, and I don't have to pay a "yearly subscription fee." I still get all the plate updates and flight plan filing functionality...

[danb35]

Quote: allsmiles

I think you are making some very huge assumptions. It's not as easy as you think, just writing the software. The iPad hardware is simply not aviation specific as the 796.

[danb35]

Quote: M016576

I would love to see Apple venture into avionics... but I don't think it will happen. What makes their products "affordable" is the mass market appeal. GA has too many rules/certs/tsos and not enough of a market to make it profitable. That's probably why the prices on garmin products are so high...

[LANCECASPER]

On the EFB thing, maybe I'm missing some of the 796's capabilities.  Can I put my POH on it?  Parts and service manuals?  Maintenance logs?

 

Actually you can put documents on the 796:

"aera 796 also includes a robust document viewer, so you can easily pull up weights and balances, flight manuals, raster charts or a wide range of electronically formatted materials you download to the device. A “scratch pad” feature also allows you to quickly jot down clearances and other pertinent notes while in route, while a checklist viewer allows you to create customized and interactive electronic checklists."      Garmin's website

[jetdriven]

its still only 3x the price of an ipad and all the subscriptions.   Plus, the ipad is 75$ a year for legal chart updates, not 500$.  so the ipad is between 3x and 5x cheaper depending on how many years you keep it.  Plus I can watch movies and surf the internet on the ipad.  PLus display weather on the ground, file  a flight plan, listen to music.  et al.

[M016576]

Let me rephrase my prior comments...

1.  I have the old version of Foreflight that did/does not require a yearly subscription.  I don't think you can buy this version any longer, and I know they aren't updating it any more, but it still gets chart/plate updates for free every month.  I think it is an excellent program, although it doesn't have an iPad version, or some of the newer features (like moving map capability or geo-ref.'ed approach plates).  I love Foreflight.  I think it's a great program.  I really just wish they would have stuck with a single upfront price, rather than the yearly subscription fees.

2.  I have been looking at Garmin Aera 560's on ebay, as well as 696's, since the newer Aera 796 has been announced.  It looks like a mass exodus of users selling their "old" 696's and 560's in order to get ready for their new 796's.  I've seen 2 560's in the last week sell for $1000 bucks.  Those are nice units... I like the size and the features, as well as the touchscreen.  Really the thing that I don't like about the iPad is the size... its just so big.  I do have an iPad, and I bought a $20 app that displays approach plates.  It's a one time fee app, too, no monthly subscriptions (can't remember the name of the app of hand).  That's what I'd like to see more of:  Apps that are an upfront cost, and don't require all these subscription fees.  I wish garmin would do that, too... 500 bucks a year is alot for digital charts...

[Txbyker]

I don't think you can't really compare 796 vs iPad per se.  796 is purpose built for aviation.  iPad is a connectivity product that provides aviation applications.  Just my view. 

iPad Utility

- Plan weather, route, fuel consumption and file from the application via the built-in CSC DUATS from anywhere you can connect

- Use FlightPlan app to check weight and balance in a few seconds

- Use AOPA airports for info

- At airport use Safari to pull up Flightaware, load your tail number is see if ATC accepted your route or see what they gave you before dialing up ATC

- You can use the geopositioning while taxing if you like

- Throw the iPad in the back seat to get it out of the way of the clutter (and out of the sun)

- At destination use the iPad maps to navigate your rent car

- Use iPad to search for gas, resturants, etc.

- Haven't done this yet but stream music via bluetooth to your bluetooth headsets.

Until Garmin "connects" the 796 to the internet I don't see a true comparison.  Any comments about how you use your iPad as a utility tool?

[danb35]

For those on the MAPA e-mail list, Don Kaye posted a review of the 796 last night after he'd bought one and had a chance to use it a bit.  It wasn't very favorable--sounds like he prefers his 696.  FWIW...

[aviatoreb]

One thing that bothers me about the ipad in the cockpit is it is just too big - its size is nice for a book reader and for email and browsing the web, etc - but for cockpit - I like the size of the new 796 - just a "sminch" smaller. Well - I starting researching and there is hint that there will be a smaller ipad coming out at christmas time. I know - apple pre-release speculation is rampant - but nonetheless - I am going to guess that they will eventually release a smaller ipad 3. So on size grounds alone I would not get a 796. There are other good reasons of course that we could discuss - but for the moment I see myself using my ipad 1 as an efb running FF - FF seems to be the best ipad software for EFB use, and if I get the itch for a 796 to mount on my yoke - then I will get the "ipad 3" which will be released ...eventually.  Then I will put wingx on my ipad 3 and project synthetic vision and terrain warnings which is what I think wingx does a lot better than FF.  Then both ipads could share the single blue tooth waas gps for accurate position.

Compared to the price of anything garmin, a couple of ipads and a few subscriptions for ipad software is a lot less.  In any case I already have an ipad 1.  Now I just need the ipad 3.  The ipad 4 by the way has a built in expresso maker -to perk you up after a long flight.  That's what I really want in the cockpit.  Who wouldn't?

Erik

[fantom]

My 796 arrived yesterday, after being the first person to order one through Sarasota Avionics. Garmin had uploaded the manual the night before and I spent from 12am to 2am that early morning reading all 210 pages. I first updated the system. The unit was reported to be shutting down randomly and had some other idiosyncrasies. Then I updated the databases, and finally tried to transfer over the Jepp Charts subscription. I later found out that they won't be available for several weeks. Lastly I transferred over the XM service. So much for the basics.

Last night I went down to the airplane and tried to figure out the best way to mount it. It was NOT easy if you want to be able to view it in both portrait and landscape mode. Garmin's mount is inadequate. They need a swivel mount that easy allows the transition. Currently it is a real hassle playing with the RAM mount to do the transition. I ended up using their small square RAM mount attachment instead of the trusty old mount that I have been using for the 696.

I played with the unit all day yesterday in the "built like a tank" home cradle supplied by Garmin . During that time I found a number of bugs in their programming that I relayed to Garmin. I suspect there will be another system upgrade very shortly.

For me the 796 was very disorienting compared to the familiar 696. While there is only one button on the unit there is a lot more button tapping than the button pushing of the 696, and getting around the 696 seems to me to be easier than navigating the 796. Notwithstanding much of the publicity, the 796 does NOT do everything the 696 does and more. The flight planning section is lacking, the one, two, or three line tapes on the map page are gone in favor of only four items in each corner of the display, and they are not highlighted, so they are VERY difficult to see. The last column of the flight planning page on the 696 allows selection of multiple variables that are of interest during the flight, The 796 has two columns and no variables to select. The screens of the 696 to me are more aesthetically pleasing and much better organized than those of the 796. The 796 does have 3D vision.

I flew the 796 for the first time today over to Top Gun to have it installed. In hindsight I should have had the install added to the 696 install so I would have the option to keep the 696 installation intact. I didn't. What I found from the flight was that I liked the landscaped position best, and the 3D vision, while nice, seems to be really a gimmick. But what bothered me most was that the touch buttons were very intermittent in the heat of the cockpit (not on the ground) and I felt like I was burning my hands while attempting to do anything. The screen it HOT HOT HOT to the touch. Considering that the brightness is better than that of the iPad or other devices, that probably should come as no surprise. I wonder how hot the 750 or 650 are. I didn't like the "hot to the touch" on a touch screen unit ONE BIT.

For the moment I am going to keep my 696 and see if I can get over the issues of the 796. If I can't, I may sell the 796 and go back to the 696, which as of this writing I feel is the better unit. To those who have the 696 my recommendation is to stay with it. To those who don't and want the best dedicated unit out there, I'd still stay with the 696.

The is very disappointing to say the least...

----
Courtesy of:

Donald Kaye | Master CFI, MEI & the MAPA List
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

[jetdriven]

How is he going to install this thing?  Is there a panel dock for it?  Also, if I just spent 2500 clams on someting I am having this many gripes about, I would send it back to Sarasota Avionics.  They dont pay him to be a beta tester, and these days it shocks me how so much escapes the factory on production equipment.  We pay good money not to have problems.

[DaV8or]

Quote: danb35

[wolftimj]

I am an iPad and iPad2 owner, as well as Xoom tablet and various varieties of other Android and iOS devices. I own a company which writes apps for both Android and iOS (iPhone / iPad). What do I use in my plane (was a J, now a Bravo)? A 696, maybe trading to a 796, maybe not. And I do have Foreflight and Pilot My Cast on my iPads and iPhone. Try and read an iPad in direct sunlight... They are pretty cool though. Garmin is keeping my business.

[PTK]

Quote: fantom

My 796 arrived yesterday, after being the first person to order one through Sarasota Avionics. Garmin had uploaded the manual the night before and I spent from 12am to 2am that early morning reading all 210 pages. I first updated the system. The unit was reported to be shutting down randomly and had some other idiosyncrasies. Then I updated the databases, and finally tried to transfer over the Jepp Charts subscription. I later found out that they won't be available for several weeks. Lastly I transferred over the XM service. So much for the basics.

Last night I went down to the airplane and tried to figure out the best way to mount it. It was NOT easy if you want to be able to view it in both portrait and landscape mode. Garmin's mount is inadequate. They need a swivel mount that easy allows the transition. Currently it is a real hassle playing with the RAM mount to do the transition. I ended up using their small square RAM mount attachment instead of the trusty old mount that I have been using for the 696.

I played with the unit all day yesterday in the "built like a tank" home cradle supplied by Garmin . During that time I found a number of bugs in their programming that I relayed to Garmin. I suspect there will be another system upgrade very shortly.

For me the 796 was very disorienting compared to the familiar 696. While there is only one button on the unit there is a lot more button tapping than the button pushing of the 696, and getting around the 696 seems to me to be easier than navigating the 796. Notwithstanding much of the publicity, the 796 does NOT do everything the 696 does and more. The flight planning section is lacking, the one, two, or three line tapes on the map page are gone in favor of only four items in each corner of the display, and they are not highlighted, so they are VERY difficult to see. The last column of the flight planning page on the 696 allows selection of multiple variables that are of interest during the flight, The 796 has two columns and no variables to select. The screens of the 696 to me are more aesthetically pleasing and much better organized than those of the 796. The 796 does have 3D vision.

I flew the 796 for the first time today over to Top Gun to have it installed. In hindsight I should have had the install added to the 696 install so I would have the option to keep the 696 installation intact. I didn't. What I found from the flight was that I liked the landscaped position best, and the 3D vision, while nice, seems to be really a gimmick. But what bothered me most was that the touch buttons were very intermittent in the heat of the cockpit (not on the ground) and I felt like I was burning my hands while attempting to do anything. The screen it HOT HOT HOT to the touch. Considering that the brightness is better than that of the iPad or other devices, that probably should come as no surprise. I wonder how hot the 750 or 650 are. I didn't like the "hot to the touch" on a touch screen unit ONE BIT.

For the moment I am going to keep my 696 and see if I can get over the issues of the 796. If I can't, I may sell the 796 and go back to the 696, which as of this writing I feel is the better unit. To those who have the 696 my recommendation is to stay with it. To those who don't and want the best dedicated unit out there, I'd still stay with the 696.

The is very disappointing to say the least...

----

Courtesy of:

Donald Kaye | Master CFI, MEI & the MAPA List

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

[Skywarrior]

Garmin box does things that the iPad doesn't...CHECK!

iPad does things that the Garmin box doesn't...CHECK!

They are essentially different products...CHECK!

Then why is the Garmin being promoted as the iPad killer???  (Apple has not claimed to be a replacement to Garmin, as far as I know.)

Thanks to everybody for making my point.

[N33GG]

Quote: Skywarrior

Garmin box does things that the iPad doesn't...CHECK!

iPad does things that the Garmin box doesn't...CHECK!

They are essentially different products...CHECK!

Then why is the Garmin being promoted as the iPad killer???  (Apple has not claimed to be a replacement to Garmin, as far as I know.)

Thanks to everybody for making my point.

[PTK]

To be fair, I don't believe Garmin themselves ever refered to the 796 as the iPad killer. This reference was made by the particular author of the AOPA article I believe. It is not accurate because Garmin is not competing with the iPad. 

[N33GG]

Quote: allsmiles

To be fair, I don't believe Garmin themselves ever refered to the 796 as the iPad killer. This reference was made by the particular author of the AOPA article I believe. It is not accurate because Garmin is not competing with the iPad. 

[eldeano]

Quote: stevesm20b

I think Garmin has an excellent product. But it's outrageous what they charge for all the updates. At least with the ipad you have a lot more options and your not paying every month for updates. It's amazing all the stuff that has come out recently for the ipad. Moving maps, charts, weather, synthetic vison. And it seems every month or two someone is coming out with something even better. All without reoccuring monthly fees. Garmin is going to have to lower their update fees if they want my business.  

[Bennett]

Just another opinion. I have a pnel mounted (AirGizmo) 696 as an augmentation to my GTN750. I am swapping out the 696 (no, it is not for sale) for the 796.  The reason is that I have learned to use the GTN750 touch interface, and shallow menus. I have a few gripes about the GTN750, but they are trivial, and I expect that they will be delt with in the next software release.  I have found that switching from the GTN750's touch interface to the 696's buttons, knobs, joystick - push, or rotate, is far less intuitive, and I find myself trying to use the 696 as though it was a touch screen.  I also have an iPad, which is also a useful tool given its limitations as a general purpose device.  Foreflight is great, and getting better all the time, but Garmin produces excellent, relaible equipment.  On my most recent flight, I kept the iPad (Foreflight) on the co-pilot seat, as I really like the sectional chart presentation for Class B,C ring floors and ceilings.  This is actually better, and quicker than the GTN750, which takes two steps to find the data. I don't think that it is a contest between iPads and Garmin.  They each have their strengths and weaknesses, and I am fortunate that I don't have to choose between them, but can make the best use of each.  I started flying in 1956, and to my mind, all of these new navigational devices were totally unimaginable at that time. No matter which devices we use, they are a hell of a lot better than we had in the past. I can ded reckon when necessary - have done so over the years, but I find flying much more enjoyable (and safer) using any or all of the new gear.

[Bennett]

P.S.  I called AirGizmo last week, and their 796 panel dock is about a month away from production.

[DaV8or]

Quote: Bennett

P.S.  I called AirGizmo last week, and their 796 panel dock is about a month away from production.