Formation flying might have just saved my life.

[ragedracer1977]

My heart is still racing.  I was on about a 2 mile final to 7L.  Configured. Everything looking good.  Suddenly I saw motion out the right window.  It was a Piper Arrow.  He came up from under in a hard right bank.  He was landing parallel on 7R.  He was close enough that I couldn't see either wingtip.  Just the fuselage and part of each wing.  CLOSE and getting closer.

Without even having to think about it, I jammed the left rudder pedal to the floor and pushed.

I think, without formation practice, I would have yanked aileron and assuredly would have hit him.  

Be careful out there.

 

[DXB]

25 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

My heart is still racing.  I was on about a 2 mile final to 7L.  Configured. Everything looking good.  Suddenly I saw motion out the right window.  It was a Piper Arrow.  He came up from under in a hard right bank.  He was landing parallel on 7R.  He was close enough that I couldn't see either wingtip.  Just the fuselage and part of each wing.  CLOSE and getting closer.

Without even having to think about it, I jammed the left rudder pedal to the floor and pushed.

I think, without formation practice, I would have yanked aileron and assuredly would have hit him.  

Be careful out there.

 

Ugh - did you ever find out whether he saw you from below?   I've no formation experience and am sure I would have used the aileron.

[ragedracer1977]

6 minutes ago, DXB said:

Ugh - did you ever find out whether he saw you from below?   I've no formation experience and am sure I would have used the aileron.

I don't know.  I reported to the tower and tried to call on the phone after I landed but didn't get an answer

[epsalant]

My heart is still racing.  I was on about a 2 mile final to 7L.  Configured. Everything looking good.  Suddenly I saw motion out the right window.  It was a Piper Arrow.  He came up from under in a hard right bank.  He was landing parallel on 7R.  He was close enough that I couldn't see either wingtip.  Just the fuselage and part of each wing.  CLOSE and getting closer.
Without even having to think about it, I jammed the left rudder pedal to the floor and pushed.
I think, without formation practice, I would have yanked aileron and assuredly would have hit him.  
Be careful out there.
 

Not a formation flyer... Can you explain your maneuver to educate everybody?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[N9201A]

My heart is still racing.  I was on about a 2 mile final to 7L.  Configured. Everything looking good.  Suddenly I saw motion out the right window.  It was a Piper Arrow.  He came up from under in a hard right bank.  He was landing parallel on 7R.  He was close enough that I couldn't see either wingtip.  Just the fuselage and part of each wing.  CLOSE and getting closer.
Without even having to think about it, I jammed the left rudder pedal to the floor and pushed.
I think, without formation practice, I would have yanked aileron and assuredly would have hit him.  
Be careful out there.
 

WELL DONE!

There are not a lot of things that should be done instantly in an airplane, but avoiding a collision is one. Only by practicing emergency procedures can we build the muscle memory to execute those types of things. Glad you obviously devoted enough time to it to avoid becoming a statistic.

Don’t forget an ASRS report. You may even want to call the tower once you’ve had some time to think about it and try to prevent a reoccurrence, they may not realize how close you got.

[N9201A]

Not a formation flyer... Can you explain your maneuver to educate everybody?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

Simply, changing the direction away from another plane most effectively in close is done with yaw, not bank. It’s immediate and also allows you to keep sight of what you’re trying to avoid instead of going “belly up” (and therefore blind) to it.

We are taught from student days that planes turn by banking, but this is least effective and responsive when in close, as well as dangerous. So stepping on the rudder away from the threat is best—in our light GA planes.

Bunch of published materials on mooneycaravan.com in the “training” section, look at “blind” or emergency procedures. Or go for a ride with a pair of qualified form pilots, it can be a lot of fun for those with whom it resonates, and you really get to know how to fly your airplane.

[ragedracer1977]

8 minutes ago, epsalant said:

Not a formation flyer... Can you explain your maneuver to educate everybody?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
 

I'm not an instructor, I'm pretty new at this, so take the following with that in mind, but I'll try my best to explain.

The other plane was in pretty extreme bank.  Bank does not equal turn.  If I put in left aileron, all it would have accomplished was raising my right wing. I would not have been creating distance.  Using rudder kept me level, able to see him, but changed my thrust vector immediately.  Then I pushed on the yoke and went down.  While this was happening, he actually "slid" over top of me. 

[ragedracer1977]

8 minutes ago, N9201A said:

WELL DONE!

There are not a lot of things that should be done instantly in an airplane, but avoiding a collision is one. Only by practicing emergency procedures can we build the muscle memory to execute those types of things. Glad you obviously devoted enough time to it to avoid becoming a statistic.

Don’t forget an ASRS report. You may even want to call the tower once you’ve had some time to think about it and try to prevent a reoccurrence, they may not realize how close you got.

ASRS has been filed. I tried to call the tower but didn't get an answer 

[aviatoreb]

Well done!

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, ragedracer1977 said:

ASRS has been filed. I tried to call the tower but didn't get an answer 

They were pretty busy today.   I was safety wiring a propeller much of the day and it seemed busier than usual.   The Rat squadron was out doing formation stuff, a bunch of RVs were flying together, just busy.   A friend that flew earlier in the morning was in line #8 to depart on the north side.

So either they were busy or they knew what you were calling about. 

[ragedracer1977]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

 

So either they were busy or they knew what you were calling about. 

I'm guessing a little of both lol

[JohnB]

On 3/14/2020 at 2:48 PM, ragedracer1977 said:

I'm not an instructor, I'm pretty new at this, so take the following with that in mind, but I'll try my best to explain.

The other plane was in pretty extreme bank.  Bank does not equal turn.  If I put in left aileron, all it would have accomplished was raising my right wing. I would not have been creating distance.  Using rudder kept me level, able to see him, but changed my thrust vector immediately.  Then I pushed on the yoke and went down.  While this was happening, he actually "slid" over top of me. 

Bravo!. Well done. Perfect execution. You’re right, formation training likely saved a collision there. If the other plane was on top of you, he obviously didn’t  see you and if you had used any aileron to get away, your right wing would have risen and likely impacted him, whereas hard left rudder just creates rapid horizontal  distance without any loss of sight. 
 

Wondering if he was trying also to land on the L runway by mistake. If he realized that mistake and banked right to correct it, his left wing would be high and he would not be able to see you. But if he passed over on top of you, that was a collision about to happen. Thanks for sharing and glad you’re ok! 
 

Paws

[FloridaMan]

Horizontal component of lift turns the plane. I was taught to maintain a visual gap under the wing of the lead plane and be prepared to dive away from the other plane if things didn’t look right. 

[HIghpockets]

Wow. Well done. Excellent information. Question: What is the best maneuver to avoid a head-on collision. My recollection about avoiding bird strikes is to pull up since avian reaction is to dive but does this recommendation  hold for nose to nose encounters? 

[Ibra]

Glad you are ok, always a lucky escape !

I always went cut throttle and stick forward including at pattern heights (I believe this works for everything where I have no clue what aircraft is doing or I don't have time to check if I am inside its safe envelope), this is ok for open cockpit and low wings but less ideal on high wings, however, the aircraft response is always up to par even in underpowered vintage aircrafts that I regularly fly in formation, I don't fly nearby someone in the Mooney but think this should work as well? 

For mid-air collision in gliders, I am happy to use rudder or pull/push, tighten turns and take whatever stall, spin or max G...as long as there is 1000ft agl bellow

[SantosDumont]

On 3/14/2020 at 2:48 PM, ragedracer1977 said:

Using rudder kept me level, able to see him, but changed my thrust vector immediately.  Then I pushed on the yoke and went down.  While this was happening, he actually "slid" over top of me. 

Makes me wonder how crazy dogfights were.  Doing all that while trying to shoot at each other.

[ragedracer1977]

7 hours ago, SantosDumont said:

Makes me wonder how crazy dogfights were.  Doing all that while trying to shoot at each other.

Man, I can't tell you how bad I want to do one of those dogfight deals.  But I hear the safety record isn't great.

[Yetti]

On 3/16/2020 at 6:54 AM, HIghpockets said:

Wow. Well done. Excellent information. Question: What is the best maneuver to avoid a head-on collision. My recollection about avoiding bird strikes is to pull up since avian reaction is to dive but does this recommendation  hold for nose to nose encounters? 

I was taught to pull up.   Hopefully the exposing of your belly will create something the other pilot will see and then try and miss.   Yes pull up for birds as they will dive.  I have a bird to plane interaction about every other flight.  Turkey vultures like to ride the thermals.   usually just lift a wing.   Only time I have scarred Mrs. Yetti is when  I Yanked for a bird.

[Yetti]

To the OP

 

[SantosDumont]

On 3/16/2020 at 8:22 PM, ragedracer1977 said:

Man, I can't tell you how bad I want to do one of those dogfight deals.  But I hear the safety record isn't great.

Well... can't be any worse than 7L at DVT!

[N9201A]

I was taught to pull up.   Hopefully the exposing of your belly will create something the other pilot will see and then try and miss.  

Hope you’re (1) never in that situation (2) with someone similarly “taught”...awk—ward!!

[Yetti]

14 hours ago, N9201A said:

 

Hope you’re (1) never in that situation (2) with someone similarly “taught”...awk—ward!!

It's happened three.  I also head right.   Once on FF the controller called with excitement in his voice and beeping in the background.  Another I was tracking on the G1000 and chose to avoid.   Third was a king air we were on FF,  ATC asked him to change course.  He said unable.  That time we went left

[Ibra]

On 3/18/2020 at 11:33 AM, Yetti said:

I have a bird to plane interaction about every other flight.  Turkey vultures like to ride the thermals.   usually just lift a wing.   Only time I have scarred Mrs. Yetti is when  I Yanked for a bird.

I encountered few in gliders, most will look at you then fold their wings and dive even when you try to hit them on purpose (e.g. crows, kites, hawks..), unfortunately, I can't fold wings in a Mooney, but I can still cut power and dive   

The only exceptions so far are seagulls, they just travel along with zero situational awareness, I would put them in the same category as flying chickens* 

*More the super market variety: heavy, frozen and with their wings clipped 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Ibra said:

... seagulls, they just travel along with zero situational awareness, I would put them in the same category as flying chickens* 

*More the super market variety: heavy, frozen and with their wings clipped 

Squab of the sea!