Similar Chute; Different Day

[Blue on Top]

Regretfully, the full aircraft parachute will never go away … as long as Cirrus is making more airplanes than anyone else (which might be coming to an end before long).

So, and responders will have to qualify their comments by aircraft body length, how much useful load is one willing to give up (and maybe a couple knots and maybe a little cosmetics) to add a parachute to their Mooney?  And how much initial cost and recurring costs is one willing to give up, too.  Nothing is free, but I know it can be done better than what is currently out there (experience is priceless … not free, though).  In essence, is a used airplane with a full aircraft parachute worth as much as a new aircraft with a full aircraft parachute?

I am guess that this topic has be brought up a "few" times before, but ...

Here goes.   …  Pull!

[Niko182]

18 minutes ago, Blue on Top said:

Regretfully, the full aircraft parachute will never go away … as long as Cirrus is making more airplanes than anyone else (which might be coming to an end before long).

So, and responders will have to qualify their comments by aircraft body length, how much useful load is one willing to give up (and maybe a couple knots and maybe a little cosmetics) to add a parachute to their Mooney?  And how much initial cost and recurring costs is one willing to give up, too.  Nothing is free, but I know it can be done better than what is currently out there (experience is priceless … not free, though).  In essence, is a used airplane with a full aircraft parachute worth as much as a new aircraft with a full aircraft parachute?

I am guess that this topic has be brought up a "few" times before, but ...

Here goes.   …  Pull!

not worth it for me. Granted I'll have an 1170lb useful load when the plane comes back from the avionics shop, I'd rather keep that for fuel reserves, or fill it with people. at 500 ft, after takeoff, I  have options to land. at 250ft after departure, I don't, and I can't use the chute anyway.

[carusoam]

I think a chute will solve one major problem I may have... depending on where I have it...

Since a chute is not available for my plane...

I am seriously considering the airbag seat belts... as an improvement on that one problem...

Pretty much a one time cost measured at less than 1amu...  some additional costs may apply...

Best regards,

-a-

[Blue on Top]

@carusoam  Is there an STC for these shoulder harnesses to be installed in your Mooney?

Before you purchase, you might want to read what the NTSB has to say about air bag shoulder harnesses.  All that glitters is not gold.  Plain shoulder harnesses have proven time and time again to save lives.  If your airplane doesn't currently have shoulder harnesses, I highly recommend them.  Remember that Mooneys were designed long before HIC requirements (Head Impact Criteria (… and 26G crash seats, too).

One large advantage of having a side stick (M10) is that it opens up more panel space for an air bag that won't conflict with flight controls.

My 2 cents, Ron 

[carusoam]

My M20C got shoulder harnesses after I bought it...

The M20R comes with nice comfy Three way belts...

But, in the event of Off airport landing...  the airbag seat belts available in new Mooneys looks like a better idea...

When Escaping the plane, It helps if the pilot is awake...

Many of the Mooney accidents... the plane was already on the ground when it struck something....

Hence the desire to get the airbags...

I’ll take a chute too...

Best regards,

-a-

[cliffy]

One item that no one ever thinks about with chutes (and which I had to train our local fire department on) is if there is an airplane down without deploying its chute, the rescue crew needs to be trained on how to cut the airframe open without firing the chute. Do it wrong and that can kill a first responder. 

No one in our city fire dept. had ever even heard of the danger on Cirrus airplanes. They now have a training program to review for recurrent. 

I've thought about the idea of a chute but for me (day VFR), the cost (10 year repack and cartridge) and the limited envelope for deploy seems to turn me off.  The weight hit doesn't hit me too bad the way I fly. Now if I did IMC or night mountains that might tip the scales enough .  We tend to forget (or never hear ) of all the forced off airport landings that happen every year without any serious injuries. I would think that if you are under enough control to be within the deploy envelope and you pull the cord ,then you could make a forced landing successfully or you are either over terrain that is not conducive to a forced landing, its dark and you can't see the ground, or its IMC down to the deck. All of the last 3 are purely pilot risk factor decisions. The PIC makes those decisions, good or bad. 

Now considering that aircraft safety is "perception" based, not reality based, the uninformed general public thinks the airplane is a lot "safer" with a chute. That too will never change. 

[Tim Jodice]

I would pay $22,000 for a installed parachute. 

[Guest]

Not only is there the recurring maintenance costs with AmSafe air bag seat belts, there is a serious lack of support from the company.  They seem to never have parts on hand, six weeks is typical delivery time.  Plan accordingly.

Clarence

[jetdriven]

9 hours ago, Niko182 said:

not worth it for me. Granted I'll have an 1170lb useful load when the plane comes back from the avionics shop, I'd rather keep that for fuel reserves, or fill it with people. at 500 ft, after takeoff, I  have options to land. at 250ft after departure, I don't, and I can't use the chute anyway.

As long as you don’t plan on flying at night or in the clouds,  or over mountains or forests, that sounds solid.  

[EricJ]

7 hours ago, Blue on Top said:

@carusoam  Is there an STC for these shoulder harnesses to be installed in your Mooney?

Before you purchase, you might want to read what the NTSB has to say about air bag shoulder harnesses.  All that glitters is not gold.  Plain shoulder harnesses have proven time and time again to save lives.  If your airplane doesn't currently have shoulder harnesses, I highly recommend them.  Remember that Mooneys were designed long before HIC requirements (Head Impact Criteria (… and 26G crash seats, too).

 

People tend to think any "safety" device must be good.   I'm not a fan of tying an explosive device across my chest, especially when there'll be little control over where the forces go.

LOTS of engineering (seriously, huge amounts) goes into airbag installations in vehicles, and the structures around them, the restraint device, seat, cabin space, basically the entire environment, is designed to work together as a safety system.   Sticking a bag on a belt in a vehicle that wasn't designed with it and wasn't tested with it just seems like a bad idea to me.

[steingar]

10 hours ago, Blue on Top said:

Regretfully, the full aircraft parachute will never go away … as long as Cirrus is making more airplanes than anyone else (which might be coming to an end before long).

Do you have some special knowledge about this?

A pal put one of those things in his Skyhawk.  He likes it, despite the fact that he lost his luggage pay and quite a bit of useful load.  I wouldn't mind it were it not for the recurring costs.  You really have to budget $1500/year for that repack, and the price is only going to go up.  As our airplanes age the ability to withstand such financial hurdles diminishes.

[FloridaMan]

If you're at a high enough altitude for the airplane chute to be effective, you're also high enough to put one on your back and bail out. 

[FloridaMan]

9 hours ago, Blue on Top said:

@carusoam  Is there an STC for these shoulder harnesses to be installed in your Mooney?

Before you purchase, you might want to read what the NTSB has to say about air bag shoulder harnesses.  All that glitters is not gold.  Plain shoulder harnesses have proven time and time again to save lives.  If your airplane doesn't currently have shoulder harnesses, I highly recommend them.  Remember that Mooneys were designed long before HIC requirements (Head Impact Criteria (… and 26G crash seats, too).

One large advantage of having a side stick (M10) is that it opens up more panel space for an air bag that won't conflict with flight controls.

My 2 cents, Ron 

Shoulder straps are an absolute necessity. I will not fly in an airplane without them. My grandfather, a WW2 fighter pilot, crashed a Baron in 1962 and spent the last 40+ years of his life scarred up like Tom Cruise in Vanilla Sky because he hit the panel. He was the only one seriously injured in the crash. Plane was fueled the night before an early morning flight. He inspected it so he could go home, sleep a few hours and go. Someone either flew the plane after inspection or stole fuel out of it. If you've ever flown with me, you'll note that I am religious about looking in my tanks, checking my dipstick and sumping/smelling fuel before getting into any airplane. I lost a close friend to a Jet-A instead of 100LL fueling mishap recently, and we had a member here @SantosDumont who was fueled with Jet-A when he didn't even put in a fuel order. 

One of my flight instructors had to take a 709 ride after a former student of his crashed a Cherokee on a road in Florida coming back from Disney. The accident required major reconstructive surgery on the pilot's face because he hit the panel. Cause of the accident? Fuel exhaustion. He had a receipt and paid for the fuel, but the fuel did not end up in his plane and he didn't look in the tanks to verify.  

[Austintatious]

4 hours ago, jetdriven said:

As long as you don’t plan on flying at night or in the clouds,  or over mountains or forests, that sounds solid.  

Honestly for me, if I had an aircraft with a chute, I would not do things that would not be safe without one.

[Blue on Top]

5 minutes ago, Austintatious said:

Honestly for me, if I had an aircraft with a chute, I would not do things that would not be safe without one.

@Austintatious  Exactly!

… but that is not the mindset of people that fly with them.

And to repeat what @cliffy said, "We tend to forget (or never hear of) all the forced off airport landings that happen every year without any serious injuries" and in my opinion are never (or seldom) reported.  This is my point exactly that parachutes may have "saved" 237 people, but the 1000s of people that have landed off airport or on airport after a failure are not published, documented or on TV.

Thanks, everyone!

[Hank]

5 hours ago, jetdriven said:

As long as you don’t plan on flying at night or in the clouds,  or over mountains or forests, that sounds solid.  

If I was limited to Day VFR over flat farmland and mattress factories, I never could have finished training for my PPL in West Virginia, and certainly never would have purchased an airplane to travel in. Pattern work only would get really old, really fast . . . .

both of my checkrides were out of KCRW.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Hank

[Blue on Top]

4 hours ago, steingar said:

Do you have some special knowledge about this?

I know that Textron Aviation (Cessna) can't make enough C172s and Piper can't make enough trainers for the current market.  Trainers that can be heavily abused are very. very much in demand right now.

[PT20J]

This would be better than airbags. 

[Ibra]

8 hours ago, cliffy said:

Now considering that aircraft safety is "perception" based, not reality based, the uninformed general public thinks the airplane is a lot "safer" with a chute. That too will never change. 

Lot of chute benefits can be addressed by careful planning and some training but you are still left with a residual risk for not having a chute but the overall number would be the same, if all I care about is reducing  that risk to zero, I would go for a slow solid fixed tricycle gear with STOL kit, 5 point harness and docile flying, why going for a quirky fast touring types? especially, the one where the chute was initially designed to meet spin exit certifications?

So what is left at the end is "safety perception": my wife used to be scared of engine off and had vertige, so I took her gliding for hours near the Alps that gave her enough peace of mind on the two topics (but she is now scared of hypoxia ), in the other hand she did find 2h of night cross-country flying to be safe and peaceful while all I could think on the back of my mind: why I am flying Mooney not Cirrus...

Buying peace of mind is costly but it may not significantly change your overall flying risk (even aflying reliable helicopter that can land anywhere)

[Blue on Top]

3 hours ago, PT20J said:

This would be better than airbags. 

@PT20J  I have heard 3-point is better than 4, but I have no hard data  … and 5-point (4-point with crotch strap) is better than 3.  The reason I was told is with 4-point, the shoulder harnesses have a tendency to pull up the waist belt and allow the occupant to slide underneath (submarine).  From high-speed, slow-motion cameras, I am amazed at how much these belts stretch in a crash.  Wichita State University (a local university) does seat testing … for a $$$$$$ price .

From your experience (and everyone can chime in here), could a composite seat be made lighter than metal but with the same or lower (but certificable) decelerations?  One of the large empty weight increases (read "useful load removers" when Cessna lines were restarted, was the 60+ lbs. in seats to bring them up to 26G standards (current regulations).  If I wasn't a little attracted to shiny things that move and have a million ideas, I would love to learn all about how race cars do it, and how that information can be used to make airplanes safer.  BTW, survivability numbers go way up if the airplane hits the ground with the wings level and relatively flat (nose down is bad).

PS. None of current aircraft seats (other than Cirrus, kind of) has been made to protect the occupant from the vertical descent on a parachute.  The regulation is no more than 1,500 lbs. into the spine (it doesn't say walk away unhurt).

[Blue on Top]

3 hours ago, Ibra said:

... (but she is now scared of hypoxia ), ...

@Ibra  If/when in the US, plan on spending a (business) day with the FAA.  OMG, did I really say that?   Anyhow, CAMI (Civil Aeromedical Institute) in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma has free one-day courses on a few topics.  One of the courses is an altitude chamber.  It is a morning of class and an afternoon chamber ride.  Sea level (1,500', actually) to 5K and back to test your ears, and then SL to ~5K before a rapid decompression to 25K' … where people learn to put on their oxygen masks.  Then it's back and forth with/without the mask to see YOUR personal hypoxia characteristics.  I would recommend that you and your wife sit across from each other (you'll have your masks on/off at different times) so you can not only feel your personal characteristics but also observe those of you spouse.  Well worth the price of admission. 

[PT20J]

29 minutes ago, Blue on Top said:

@PT20J  I have heard 3-point is better than 4, but I have no hard data  … and 5-point (4-point with crotch strap) is better than 3.  The reason I was told is with 4-point, the shoulder harnesses have a tendency to pull up the waist belt and allow the occupant to slide underneath (submarine).  From high-speed, slow-motion cameras, I am amazed at how much these belts stretch in a crash.  Wichita State University (a local university) does seat testing … for a $$$$$$ price .

From your experience (and everyone can chime in here), could a composite seat be made lighter than metal but with the same or lower (but certificable) decelerations?  One of the large empty weight increases (read "useful load removers" when Cessna lines were restarted, was the 60+ lbs. in seats to bring them up to 26G standards (current regulations).  If I wasn't a little attracted to shiny things that move and have a million ideas, I would love to learn all about how race cars do it, and how that information can be used to make airplanes safer.  BTW, survivability numbers go way up if the airplane hits the ground with the wings level and relatively flat (nose down is bad).

PS. None of current aircraft seats (other than Cirrus, kind of) has been made to protect the occupant from the vertical descent on a parachute.  The regulation is no more than 1,500 lbs. into the spine (it doesn't say walk away unhurt).

I've always used a 5 point harness in the aerobatic planes I've flown. I really like them, though I'm sure my wife would complain. I don't know anything about seats other than I recall somewhere in my Cirrus training it was mentioned that the seat and landing gear are designed to crush to absorb impact. That is supposed to be the reason why the chute isn't recommended over water -- the gear can't do it's part of the shock absorption. All this just points out that the chute isn't a simple add on -- a lot of fundamental design decisions get driven by the chute like landing gear design, seat design, chute attach points, and probably a bunch more I don't know about.

Skip

[Ibra]

58 minutes ago, Blue on Top said:

then SL to ~5K before a rapid decompression to 25K' … where people learn to put on their oxygen masks

A whole day to learn how to put a mask? sounds obvious? but I know what you mean, Mrs did show me load of YT videos on the topic 

As of now FL80 is win-win: sweet cruise spot for normally aspirated Mooney and typical cabin pressure in airliners 

But I will keep chamber training in mind, the FAA ticket is far cheaper than wasted fuel in case I go for a Turbo

59 minutes ago, Blue on Top said:

If/when in the US, plan on spending a (business) day with the FAA.

I did not expect it to be a fun or cheap day after that statement 

Say vs one day ski pass to FL100s, any snow mountains around Oklahoma ?

[Ron McBride]

Personal opinion would be a 4 point would be better than 3. 
 

In November of 17 , wrecked my Jeep Wrangler.  I hit several oak trees at an estimated 55 to 60 mph. I stopped in about 3 feet.  With a 3 point harness, I popped the airbag and hit my head on the steering wheel, dented the wheel and needed 7 staples, and fractured ribs from the belt. 
 

The cause of the accident was never determined. I don’t think that I am 100% today.  Sold the plane and retired. 
 

Be safe, fly safe.  Ron 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Ibra said:

A whole day to learn how to put a mask? sounds obvious? but I know what you mean, Mrs did show me load of YT videos on the topic 

As of now FL80 is win-win: sweet cruise spot for normally aspirated Mooney and typical cabin pressure in airliners 

But I will keep chamber training in mind, the FAA ticket is far cheaper than wasted fuel in case I go for a Turbo

I did not expect it to be a fun or cheap day after that statement 

Say vs one day ski pass to FL100s, any snow mountains around Oklahoma ?

Over here, it's just 8000 msl; FLs start at FL180 = 18,000 msl.

There may be a pile of dirt to ski on somewhere in OK, but real mountains are 1000 miles west of there . . .

I rode the PROTE chamber at the Mooney Summit. It was memorable and instructive. My first symptom was burning in my eyes--hard to miss!