Ceramic coating my new Mooney

[Mark89114]

I paid about $600 to have my brand new car ceramic coated.  Honestly not sure if worth it.  Seemed to be really good first couple of.months, but seems to have worn off quickly.  

I also recently clay bar'ed, compoundedd and polished wings only on my mooney.  Used an off the shelf "ceramic coating " product, looked really good for a while, but i put mikeage on my plane and it gets dirty and dont have the time to polish and clean like a lot of people.

[carusoam]

@Blue on Top...

When it comes to drag,

rough surface of the wings,

is there any value in getting a super smooth,  to the molecular level finish....?

The boundary layer probably has a tough time sticking to ceramic coated super waxed wings...

 

If you haven’t seen stuff slide off the paint... it is that slippery...

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

  On 12/29/2019 at 1:09 AM, carusoam said:

If you haven’t seen stuff slide off the paint... it is that slippery...

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I get this result using Aero Cosmetics Wash n Wax, blue everywhere and red on the belly. My rags slide right off the wings. 

[carusoam]

Hank,

I pictured you, me, and Mark getting our wings smoothed over for better efficiency...

Wondering what our aerodynamics guys are thinking about this level of Mooney extremism...   

Go Mooney!

-a-

[Blue on Top]

  On 12/29/2019 at 1:09 AM, carusoam said:

@Blue on Top...

When it comes to drag,

rough surface of the wings, 

is there any value in getting a super smooth,  to the molecular level finish....?

The boundary layer probably has a tough time sticking to ceramic coated super waxed wings...

 

If you haven’t seen stuff slide off the paint... it is that slippery...

Best regards,

-a-

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First of all, you guys are awesome!  I would love to know your results.  Smooth is always better.  Molecular level … I'd have to think about that.  I know that paint won't stick … it doesn't have anything to grab.

Laminar flow is a totally different beast and depends more on pressure distributions on the wing surface.  Laminar flow is encouraged by the shape of the airfoil and by continuing to have a negative pressure gradient further aft on the airfoil (which is why laminar flow airfoils are thicker further aft).  The drawback (getting to your smoothness point) is that only the air layer attached to the surface cares about surface roughness.  The remainder (as one goes up off the surface is air-to-air friction (layers or turbulence - laminar or turbulent boundary layer).  So, even if the surface is perfectly smooth, dents, dimples, dips, steps (forward and aft facing), bugs, roughness, etc. will trip the flow to turbulent.  Aerodynamicists call this the transition point.

The advantage of laminar flow is that the boundary layer is thinner.  And this is an area where I think it is easier to think of the wing cutting through the air as opposed to a wind tunnel where the air flows over the wing (yes, they are both the same … it's just a frame of reference).  With a laminar boundary layer (which is physically thinner), less air is being dragged along with the airplane; therefore producing less drag.

[AvianaMehrdad]

Hey all, Mehrdad here with Aviana. Someone pointed me to this post and I thought I'd take the opportunity to answer any questions. I'm here not to sell (my neck is still stiff from the last Mooney!), but genuinely to help answer questions, guide some DIYers or bust some myths. 

As @carusoam mentioned, these artifacts are from the paint and polishing process. In part you have polish fillers that cover them up, but also fresh paint can contract as it cures and reveal paint defects that were temporarily covered up by swollen paint (paint can swell from heat and solvents in polish) 

@aviatoreb You certainly could do it yourself! Although my videos are not really instruction step by step, you do get the gist of the process (some videos are more time-crunched than others so have less details). As @Denver98 mentioned, it is all in the prep! Poor prep can leave the finish cloudy, hazy, or impact the durability of the coating. As you have researched, there are many different products proclaiming to be ceramic coatings. Some are, some are actually waxes or sealants that may have ceramic nano paricles such as Quartz in them for added slickness. They are in my book not a coating. @Mark89114 $600 is way cheap for a paint correction and coating on a car. I am not surprised by the outcome. It could very well not have been an actual coating, the timeline of a couple of months makes me think it was a ceramic sealant. 

Although @Daneshgari mentioned that It took me two days, you have to consider that a work day for me is typically 8am-midnight, and I have coated 100's of planes and this is my specialty with tools and chemicals honed in.

I am not trying to dissuade you from trying it yourself, I just want to give you a more realistic impression of the amount of work it takes. You will need to do a paint correction to prepare the surface to properly bond the coating, regardless of if you see paint defects or not, (and I will promise you that you have paint defects, you may just not see them since the wax is filling in the defects) The step prior to coating is wiping with Panel Wipe which removes and waxes or polish fillers so you can see the true paint condition. If you are more interested in adding ceramic protection, then you may overlook some of those paint defects, but if you are looking for perfect, this can be a frustrating process as you will see all sorts of defects pop up after you think they are corrected. See paragraph below on some entry level coatings that are easy to install DIY. Since you have sample panels with the exact same paint, you can certainly practice on relevant paint. (different paints behave differently)

@ArtVandelay This particular coating can be challenging to install, especially in humid conditions. I had some streaks and hazing on the plane I just worked on in Dallas due to the humidity. It took a rather aggressive compounding to remove the streaks to redo the area. Gtechniq C1 is a very easy coating with long work time, you can top it with Gtechniq EXO for more repellency. That would be my recommendation to start off. Crystal Serum Light is a very serious coating that is available to the consumer, however, if you screw it up enough, you may have to wet sand that one off as well. Sanding on an airplane with exposed rivet heads is not a good time (see https://youtu.be/f1XbHXfNh2c)  You are also spot on with the reason why Gtechniq's flagship coating requires solid requisites of skill and reputation. 

@Hank and @Eight8Victor by the time you factor travel you are more between 3 and 4 AMUs. you can certainly find cheaper, but YMMV. Many Auto detailers aspire to coat a plane or two for the selfie value and may offer you a great deal for the exposure. As Carusoam alludes, factor your time spent supervising, and also consider that generally auto detailing insurance specifically excludes aircraft ( I have a car coating company as well and had to separate the aviation business out as my car insurance people were freaking out.)

@0TreeLemur Thanks for the shout-out. Let me know if you have any specific questions! The process for a chalky old PA-46 will be different than a newer aircraft. 

As for the efficiency aspect brought up by @Blue on Top. Boeing did a study and found that surface roughness accounted for less than a percent of total drag on their jets. I imagine on a Mooney it would be a yet smaller factor.  If I could sell this is a speed efficiency mod, I totally would   

 

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard AvianaM!

Thanks for stopping in and sharing the details.

Best regards,

-a-

[aviatoreb]

  On 12/29/2019 at 9:08 PM, AvianaMehrdad said:

 

@aviatoreb You certainly could do it yourself! Although my videos are not really instruction step by step, you do get the gist of the process (some videos are more time-crunched than others so have less details).

 

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Hey - thanks for stopping by!

So doing it yourself - I would think - begins with choosing the quality products.  This I don't have a handle on yet what are the quality products and where to obtain them.

[AvianaMehrdad]

  On 12/29/2019 at 10:02 PM, aviatoreb said:

Hey - thanks for stopping by!

So doing it yourself - I would think - begins with choosing the quality products.  This I don't have a handle on yet what are the quality products and where to obtain them.

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Start with a largo throw (21 or 15mm) dual action polisher. Yellow foam rupes polishing pads, bottle of Optimum Hyper Polish, then for coating Gtechniq Panel Wipe, Gtechniq C1

[aviatoreb]

  On 12/30/2019 at 12:38 AM, AvianaMehrdad said:

Start with a largo throw (21 or 15mm) dual action polisher. Yellow foam rupes polishing pads, bottle of Optimum Hyper Polish, then for coating Gtechniq Panel Wipe, Gtechniq C1

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Thanks!

[EricJ]

  On 12/30/2019 at 12:38 AM, AvianaMehrdad said:

Start with a largo throw (21 or 15mm) dual action polisher. Yellow foam rupes polishing pads, bottle of Optimum Hyper Polish, then for coating Gtechniq Panel Wipe, Gtechniq C1

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Thanks tons for the vids and info!

 

[Daneshgari]

Eric. How do you add the map to your signature. And how do you create the map. Can you share. Thanks
 

Perry

[PJClark]

Awesome @AvianaMehrdad!

[EricJ]

  On 12/30/2019 at 12:28 PM, Daneshgari said:

Eric. How do you add the map to your signature. And how do you create the map. Can you share. Thanks
 

Perry

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Here's a thread about it:
 

Basically, edit your profile for the signature block, adding an appropriately-configured link from https://visitedstatesmap.com/.

 

[Daneshgari]

Thank you. I will try that. 
 

Perry

[0TreeLemur]

  On 12/29/2019 at 9:08 PM, AvianaMehrdad said:

Hey all, Mehrdad here with Aviana. Someone pointed me to this post and I thought I'd take the opportunity to answer any questions. I'm here not to sell (my neck is still stiff from the last Mooney!), but genuinely to help answer questions, guide some DIYers or bust some myths.

 

@0TreeLemur Thanks for the shout-out. Let me know if you have any specific questions! The process for a chalky old PA-46 will be different than a newer aircraft.  

 

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You are welcome- my painted in 2002 Mooney has many oily fingerprints that have sorbed into the paint- especially around the doors and engine, and a mineral spirits wipe has no effect- very similar to the ones you address in the vid.  Love your work.

[AvianaMehrdad]

  On 12/31/2019 at 1:20 AM, 0TreeLemur said:

You are welcome- my painted in 2002 Mooney has many oily fingerprints that have sorbed into the paint- especially around the doors and engine, and a mineral spirits wipe has no effect- very similar to the ones you address in the vid.  Love your work.

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Sometimes as your paint expands and contracts, those stains can really work themselves in deep. I would try some meguiars M105 on a meguiars microfiber cutting pad and dual action polisher to see if you can compound it out. Something else you can try is wiping with denatured alcohol (ethanol). Ethanol is a much smaller molecule so it will penetrate deeper. Try in an inconspicuous area first as it will also pull out any polish or wax, making your paint look dull.