Approach GPS options

[galt1074]

Hey guys,

First of all, thanks for being a great resource for my ignorance of GA flying.

I've been working the budget and trying to figure out what I could afford on a monthly basis with respect to maybe buying a Mooney someday. Part of what I have to budget for is data from from Jeppessen, XM weather, etc. Now, I think the Garmin products are outstanding and I have already searched around and I know I'm supposed to buy "the best of avionics I can afford" and most are going to say thats a 430W/530W. However, the full data subscription from Garmin is somewhere North of $600 a year and that is money I could potentially use elsewhere. I know you get what you pay for but I can get a subscription from Seattle Avionics for less than half of that and it appears to include everything and more that the Garmin subscription includes. However, I cannot use a portable system (the only thing I've seen Seattle Avionics supports are EFBs) for certified IFR flight. Lets just pretend that those are not available and tell me what else is out there. What else can I put in a panel that will give me IFR legal enroute and approach capabilities. The Garmin products are so ubiquitous it is hard to find information on anything else.

Thoughts?

 

Greg

[danb35]

First, your information is incorrect--the Jepp data subscription for the 430W/530W is $385/year, not $600+/year, for the entire U.S.  Second, at this point, I doubt anybody is going to say that the x30W is the best available; that's now likely to be the GTN series (which of course is a bit more expensive).

The ideal would be a WAAS GPS for its superior approach capability--you have access to LPV approaches (with ILS-like minimums) as well as a glideslope indication on other GPS approaches.  Very nice.  For this, you need a GTN, a 430W/530W, or a Garmin/Apollo 480/CNX80.  The latter is long discontinued, but there are still many who swear by them.  Avidyne has announced a new model that's supposed to be a drop-in replacement for the 530W, and currently has what sounds like a very attractive introductory price, but it's not due to be released until next year.  Aspen/King are working on the KSN770, which if it ever gets released may be a worthy competitor, but it's not out yet.

Failing that, you'll be looking at a legacy non-WAAS GPS.  The King 89B, 90B, and 94 can all be certified for IFR approaches.  They're all (much) cheaper than a x30 would be, but the 89B and 90B have only a monochrome, low-resolution moving map display.  The 94 is color, but still pretty small.  None of them, of course, include the NAV/COM/GS of the x30 series.  The 89B and 90B are long out of production, but still available used.  The 94 is still in production, but if you're going to buy new, you might as well buy an x30.  You'll still need database updates, but I haven't seen how expensive they are--I'd be surprised if they're much less than for the Garmin, but I could be wrong.

Another option is the Apollo GX60 GPS/Comm, also long discontinued.  It also has a monochrome moving map that was, no doubt, the shizzle when it was released (at least that's what it sounds like from the reviews), but looks terribly antiquated now.  Still IFR enroute and approach certifiable.  The database is still from Jeppesen, so I'd expect similar pricing.

Finally, there are the older Garmins--the GPS155/155XL and GNC300/300XL.  IIRC, the 155/300 didn't have a moving map at all, while the 155XL/300XL had a monochrome moving map.  The 300/300XL added a Comm radio.  I believe they're all certifiable for IFR approaches, but not positive.  Again, the nav data is from Jepp, so expect about the same pricing.

In all cases, you'll want to check on installation costs.  To be IFR-legal, you need to have a CDI connected to GPS, as well as an annunciator panel and possibly switching relay, all of which can add considerable expense (both for the hardware as well as installation).

[rbridges]

Your best bet would be to buy a mooney with the GPS already installed.  The planes with the nicer panels cost more, but less than updating it yourself.

[Cris]

If you are looking for a budget approach the KLN 94 together with an Ipad & foreflight gives you IFR enroute and non waas approach certified GPS at $120 for a single update or about $260 for four updates within a year. Your charts will be displayed on the Ipad with Foreflight/WingX @$150/yr including a moving map. Presumably you will have an Glideslope receiver for the ILS precision approach. I'd look for the KLN 94 simply because it is newer/color but it is pin compatible with the KLN 89 which allows for an inexpensive upgrade. Just be certain that the install was logged as IFR certified. Other wise you will have additional costs in getting it certified.    

[galt1074]

Sorry about the incorrect data. I guess I am misreading the Garmin website because it shows over $900 for the full data subscription on the GTN series and the 696 series shows about $700 per year. I'm completely ignorant of how this stuff works on the civilian side so please tell me what I've gotten wrong here. Obviously in the military everything kind of automatically happens.

http://download.garmin.com/avdb/Garmin_Aviation_Database_Price_List.pdf

 

Thank you all for the information. My inclination was to have a portable GPS as I will be renting for a while but I know that stuff is not STC'd for use in IFR. I'm trying to walk the line between being able to afford to fly with GPS data which I know from experience in the military is safer due to decreased workload and being legal from the standpoint of the FARs. I kind of think it might be a more simple IFR GPS hooked to a CDI and an EFB with WAAS for situational awareness...obviously not for guidance.

Yeah, when it comes time I'm only buying the airplane with the avionics that I want already installed. I've seen how much the boxes and the installation costs.

Thanks for all your help guys.

[Mac201]

Get the same nav data from Jepp for less.  At least I know they have it my GNS430 so they should have for GTN series.

[danb35]

All the nav data for the panel-mount units comes from Jepp.  For the GTN 750, you have the option of getting actual Jepp charts to show on the screen or not; if you do there's a significant extra charge.  Without the Jepp charts, a bundle including nav data, taxi diagrams, terrain, and obstacles for the 650/750 is $760/year for the full US.  The nav data alone is $420/year.  The bundle with the Jepp charts is $1500/year.  With either bundle, a second device is free--so if you have a 650 and a 750, you pay for one bundle and it covers both devices.

In my experience, most owners of the 430/530 only update the nav data, not the terrain or obstacle databases; I'd presume you could do the same with the GTN series.  The nav data has to be current for IFR operations; the others don't.  That will run you in the neighborhood of $400/year (more or less, depending on the GPS) for the whole US.  If you have a second GPS, Jepp will significantly discount the second subscription (it will cost around 40% of what the first one costs).

[bnicolette]

Just because the portable units aren't certified for IFR use doesn't mean you can't refer to them while flying IFR.  I have a KNS80 RNAV unit in my airplane so I can legally file direct (within a reasonable distance; <200nm is what I use), but I use my 396 for bearing & track information.  Obviously not the greatest scenario and if you're buying a plane it would be better, as you know to buy one with an IFR GPS already installed.  I also can't do any GPS approaches which would be a nice trick to have in the bag. When I was looking I just couldn't find a plane that was meeting all my parameters and had to settle for this set up and it is working fine for my mission profile.  Now with any luck the prices in the next few years will be drastically coming down either on the used x30 units or possibly a new contender in the marketplace.

Happy hunting & blue skies,

B~

[KSMooniac]

Unfortunately Jepp is the only provider for the actual nav data used by any approach-certified GPS unit, and they price it like the monopoly they are.  

As mentioned above and many times before, buying the plane with the installed equipment you desire is the least expensive way to go as installed upgrades only return about 50% of the cost.  Finding a used/older GPS and installing is false economy in my opinion as the installation/certifications costs, CDI, annunciator (if needed) make up a fairly significant portion of the total cost and by the time you compare apples to apples it makes more sense to buy something like a 430W at a minimum.  Nearly every buyer these days will want one (or better), so if you're planning to install something it might as well be a 430W so you get the utility and enjoyment out of it before you need to sell.  If someone gives you an older GPS for free, and you can do the bulk of the installation yourself, then perhaps the equation changes a bit, but if you're buying off the shelf and paying a shop to put it in, make sure you compare the out-the-door cost with IFR certification.

Brett also has a good point that a dinosaur like the KNS80 (or even just a dual VOR setup) is still perfectly valid these days, and quite "safe" when backed up by a portable/EFB type GPS for better situational awareness.  If you choice is between a Mooney without an approach-certified GPS or no Mooney at all, well, then I would take an antiquated panel Mooney and be happy.    I learned IFR with VOR/ADF and a little bit with a KNS80 before moving map GPS became so prevalent, but I don't want to go back in time... the modern WAAS equipment paired with an autopilot and GPSS make single-pilot IFR much, much safer IMO.