Engine overhaul

[Joe Afonso]

 Greetings fellow Mooney fliers,,

I’m considered to be a newbie after being out of flying for 24yrs, so I’d like to ask the opinion of anyone willing to offer one. It was discovered that I had a seriously bad cam in my o360-A1D, I shopped around for a notable rebuilder that’s well known in the business whom I will not mention.

I received an acceptable quote that included overhaul of all components, with exception being case and crank must be in condition to overhaul. So, wouldn’t you know it, they said both are in non airworthy condition where I have to pay for both overhauls. I purchased a certified overhauled case for 3100 from crankcase services and had it sent to them and they purchased an overhauled crank from an overhaul shop for 3800.

so, here’s the question, if I initially paid and was included in price for them to overhaul case and crank, and now I have to pay to purchase already overhauled items, shouldn’t I be gettin some sort of credit, even if it is a nominal one? They didn’t have to pay to overhaul either item, and they determined in their own shop thru photographs the case was bad. It would have cost them at the very least 800-1k to overhaul EACH item.   This entire engine overhaul is costing me 30k+, and that’s without removal and installation.

I asked them to return to me the case and crank.

I told my wife when the day of my demise comes just wack the wings off and bury me in the plane.

 

 

[Frank B.]

Hello Joe,

I guess that I don’t follow where you would get a credit from the rebuilder for your case and crankshaft not being serviceable. 

What about your cylinders ... didn’t they also require them to be rebuildable? At least that allowed you to furnish your own case and are more than likely going to give you a warranty on your rebuilt engine.

[Joe Afonso]

4 minutes ago, Frank B. said:

Hello Joe,

I guess that I don’t follow where you would get a credit from the rebuilder for your case and crankshaft not being serviceable. 

What about your cylinders ... didn’t they also require them to be rebuildable? At least that allowed you to furnish your own case and are more than likely going to give you a warranty on your rebuilt engine.

I sent them brand new superior millennium cylinders in boxes, that’s how I discovered the cam was bad, was going to do a top overhaul. They gave me a credit for owner supplied cylinders.

as to the credit, let me share this analogy, if you go to a 59.99 oil change shop that doesn’t have your oil and YOU give them the oil, you don’t think there should be a credit involved?

if a machine shop says they will overhaul your crank that turns out to be bad, they can’t overhaul it, and now you have to buy a new crank, do you think you should still have to pay the quoted fee for overhaul? They didn’t overhaul the crank.

is it me?

 

[Frank B.]

10 minutes ago, Joe Afonso said:

I sent them brand new superior millennium cylinders in boxes, that’s how I discovered the cam was bad, was going to do a top overhaul. They gave me a credit for owner supplied cylinders.

as to the credit, let me share this analogy, if you go to a 59.99 oil change shop that doesn’t have your oil and YOU give them the oil, you don’t think there should be a credit involved?

if a machine shop says they will overhaul your crank that turns out to be bad, they can’t overhaul it, and now you have to buy a new crank, do you think you should still have to pay the quoted fee for overhaul? They didn’t overhaul the crank.

is it me?

 

Are you saying that they had a cost included to grind the crankshaft? If they had a value / cost included for that then sure ... you have a discount coming, IMHO.

They also let you furnish your own cylinders? Where are they making money, just on the labor only? It sounds like you have a great arrangement ... you furnish the parts .... they assemble the engine ... and they give you a warranty. I believe the average labor time for a O-360 overhaul is between 45 -50 hours. I had a reputable engine shop allow me to furnish a crankshaft once for a TCM IO-550 but other than that one isolated incident I have never been allowed to furnish any of the parts used in the OH.

[Joe Afonso]

Where are they making money?? Their making a fortune! Yes, they supply new cam, new lifters, overhaul carb and mags, new wires, plugs, incidentals, etc. included in that was a cost to overhaul case and crank, which they were unable to do. So I guess they just keep those funds they didn’t spend. I understand business,,,

Have you ever had a small repair needed on your car? If it’s not a 500 repair it will be before it comes out of the shop

 

[AlexLev]

I guess my question would be: is the cost they quoted the labor involved in positioning a new crankshaft/crankcase? i.e. how much are they charging you? If you supplied the crankcase+crankshaft and they charge you what they quoted you for an overhaul of those materials, then no...that doesn't seem fair and I would try to figure out the breakdown of their cost.

30K for an overhaul w/a crankcase + crankshaft if that includes the crank+case does sound about right though.

[ArtVandelay]

My understanding is there is a list of requirements to qualify as an overhaul, which includes list of parts to be replaced. If you require anything above and beyond what’s on the list...it’s going to cost you. I think they assume crank, case just require normal cleaning, polishing, pretty sure anything major would also be extra.

Some service shops add a charge onto any parts that are ordered for your plane. Buyer beware.

I asked for them to return my camshaft...makes a good paperweight.

 

Tom

 

[Joe Afonso]

Where are they making money?? Their making a fortune! Yes, they supply new cam, new lifters, overhaul carb and mags, new wires, plugs, incidentals, etc. included in that was a cost to overhaul case and crank, which they were unable to do. So I guess they just keep those funds they didn’t spend. I understand business,,,

Have you ever had a small repair needed on your car? If it’s not a 500 repair it will be before it comes out of the shop

 

[Joe Afonso]

Asking for the crankcase and crank to be returned keeps everyone honest, besides, if it turns out both are not airworthy there are some air boat guys that would buy them to help recoup some of the cost

[Joe Afonso]

15 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

My understanding is there is a list of requirements to qualify as an overhaul, which includes list of parts to be replaced. If you require anything above and beyond what’s on the list...it’s going to cost you. I think they assume crank, case just require normal cleaning, polishing, pretty sure anything major would also be extra.

Some service shops add a charge onto any parts that are ordered for your plane. Buyer beware.

I asked for them to return my camshaft...makes a good paperweight.

 

Tom

 

The initial quote included welding a repairable case to certified condition and the same for cutting, polishing crank. I guess it is what it is at this point, but a word to the wise, if you send in an engine for overhaul mark the case and crank with identifying marks and if they tell you there no good, ask for them to be returned

[tigers2007]

Did you ask them yet for a credit of the case and Crank work in lieu of new parts? I would personally expect them to credit you their actual cost of the work but NOT the retail (quoted) value.

I worked as a clerk at an auto shop in high school and thereafter. We would discount the oil change the wholesale cost of the oil for those that brought in their own fancy fluid; of course we wouldn’t tell the customer that. Most didn’t complain about the small discount as their expensive vehicle took special expensive fluids and they were used to the expensive lifestyle. Every once and a while some clown would argue with the manager about how we didnt discount the invoice enough. He would tell them “hey if I bring fresh ground beef to McDonalds will they make me a hamburger?”

I do agree with you though- you should be getting SOME sort of credit.


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[Joe Afonso]

I agree with you, some sort of nominal credit should be given, and I did ask them once about it, they gave me a song and dance,, I should have asked them to speak slowly about the denial so I could understand it,,,, I’m not going to argue with them about it because don’t want to hamper the warranty. I’m just sharing my experience so the next unsuspecting soul can be better prepared,,,