65C M20C Avionics: Where to begin?

[Brian E.]

I'm caught in the cone of confusion regarding the best path to upgrade my plane and would like some counsel from my MS friends.   I've read all these threads on avionics upgrades and I'd like some thoughts on my situation.  My primary interest was in a EDM-900 while it was on sale this month.  I was/am looking to do it right--CIES fuel sensors, carb temp probe, etc.  Since my panel is all original my intent was to take care of the right side panel and remove the Garwin gauges, LORAN, ADF, RPM gauge, manifold and fuel pressure gauge as well.  All told this is about a $9k project for this phase.   

The reason I wanted the EDM 900 is that I have ~200 hrs on a remanufactured engine and I'd like to get as much life out of it as I can.  I don't feel I get enough fidelity from the factory gauges to even let me lean it properly or even monitor CHTs.

The rub...

We all saw the G3X touch was recently released.  Additionally I've began my instrument training and feel I will "need" a navigator or a GPS solution of some sorts.  Although there are many VOR and ILS airports nearby, my homedrome only has GPS based approaches (and a VOR/DME but I don't have DME).   So the question is would I be better off in the long run doing a singular but larger upgrade that addresses ADS-B, PFD/MFD with integrated EIS and a GPS nav system?  I have read the engine monitor discussion thread where @gsxrpilot comments strongly about the value of a dedicated engine monitor versus an integrated system buried behind menus.

Final comment, I am hoping to remain free from Garmin.  I know it works but I'd like to have an inter-operable system that gives me some flexibility for whatever the future may hold.  I'd do Dynon if it was certified (and relased), Avidyne or whatever else.  Like many I'm hoping that the recent Garmin release will encourage more competition in this market versus run them out of business.

I look forward to your feedback!

 

 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2019 by Brian E.
Put the pics back in.

[gsxrpilot]

How tight is the budget?

As you've already mentioned, the first item on the list for me is a good engine monitor. But if trying to stretch the budget, I'd consider a GEM G2 for your M20C. That's the engine monitor I had in my M20C and it was excellent. You'd need to keep your tach and MP gauges. It would give you Primary CHT and EGT along with fuel flow, carb temp, and amps. The obvious deficiency with it is that you don't have digital fuel gauges. But it's about $2K for the unit and installation for probably less than $1K. Just a suggestion.

For IFR flying/training, the two most important items for me are a WAAS GPS and an HSI. Again, if on a budget, I'd probably install a used Garmin 530W along with a G5 in the HSI position. Nothing makes shooting approaches quite as easy as an HSI. I'm no fan of Garmin, but this would be a very capable budget install. Down the road, you could slide out the 530W for an Avidyne IFD 540 without any installation cost. The other item that would be a must have for me is a standard 6-pack panel arrangement. It also makes a huge difference for IFR flying.

If funds allowed, an Aspen PFD along with an Avidyne IFD540 is the hot ticket. 

Do you have an autopilot?

Here's the panel from my M20C. It was a very easy to fly, instrument platform, but quite affordable as well.

[carusoam]

You have begun, wisely...

Paul has shown great skills of acquiring some really good hardware and getting it installed....

Some used, some upgraded, some really capable stuff...

There are two popular paths used around here... some really impressive all Big G installations.... and some really impressive fully integrated collection of every manufacturer available....

Some companies build the technically best boxes, integrating stuff economically requires some owner skills... see Marauder, and Bob...

For a Mooney with the most upgraded, all Big G equipment Don Kaye is our go to CFII...

To See a Mooney owned by a Panel building, aircraft updating shop....  search for a video of a father and son team flying across the country lately.... then remind me of his name....  

Know there are a lot of Cs in front of you already on the upgrade path... Dev has done some nice work, and our Swiss MSer has a nice Aspen mounted in the panel...

How far do you want to go?

Back in the day... people would say it doesn’t make sense to upgrade a C so extensively.... in that case, using the same logic... it doesn’t make sense to upgrade an Ovation either...

The hardware is for flying capability... if you want it, put it in your plane....

The economics are hard to justify, the capability is easy to justify....  to make them both work... it helps if you are updating a forever-plane...

Best regards,

-a-

[Brian E.]

7 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Do you have an autopilot?

Here's the panel from my M20C. It was a very easy to fly, instrument platform, but quite affordable as well.

 

The budget isn't unlimited and to be fair I don't really know what it is.  It could be $10k - $12k each year for upgrades....

It would be harder (and I'd be less impatient to wait...) to generate $30k at once but avionics shops are slow and pricey now...

@gsxrpilot I thought you already had the Aspen/IFD combo in your plane.  What's the purple lips looking control next to your prop control knob?

I like your yokes--I "need" drilled PTT....there's something else on my list

 

@carusoam I don't know where this begins or ends. I chose a Mooney because of this community, the cost operational efficiency and how it flew.  It could be a forever plane or an almost forever plane. 

 

Time to look at HSIs!

[Rwsavory]

 Flying IFR, my priority would be an HSI, WAAS navigator, and an auto pilot. After that, everything else would be an optional extra.  If I were in the market for engine monitors right now I would be looking for a smaller less expensive instrument than the EDM 900.  You can get EGT and CHT monitoring on each cylinder for much less money than that. 

Our C was upgraded with top of the line avionics circa 1988-1990. King HSI, STEC 60-2, 430W, etc.  It all still works perfectly (knock on wood) and makes our Mooney an excellent traveling machine.  So you don’t need a $200,000 airplane to justify equipping it well. 

[Bob_Belville]

I'll trow in a vote for doing as much as you can at once. spending $10k each year for 3 years won't buy nearly as much as $30k all at once... installation costs, down time... plus you'll have the benefits of the goodies more immediately which will help with the IFR training and the usefulness of the plane once you're rated. 

I spent ~$50k 7 years ago completely updating the panel of my '66E - JPI930, GTN750, Aspen PFD1000 Pro, GDL88... integrated to STEC50. I've had ADS-B I/O - traffic, weather - for 7 years as well as GPSS and access to all GPS approaches. I am very happy and would not change a thing of what I did in 2012. (I do plan to upgrade the Aspen and the STEC this year but the MAX and the 3100 were not, still are not quite, available earlier.)

@Marauder has been upgrading his '76F for several years, adding goodies every year and rearranging the panel layout. He has a fabulous, really clean panel now that he probably would not have envisioned back when he started.    

Have fun! Keep us posted.

 

[Brian E.]

I like your panel and your yokes @Bob_Belville--thanks for sharing.

Edited April 20, 2019 by Brian E.

[DXB]

@Brian E.Bear in mind that whatever upgrades you make, something will come out later that makes you kinda wish you'd waited.  But doing  stuff all at once does save a lot of money and gets you to the panel you want a lot sooner. I would argue against the incremental approach if you seriously plan to keep the plane and make the upgrades later anyway. In addition to saving money on the install (which may offset future savings from cheaper avionics), doing it all at once lets you get rid of the accumulated patchwork of sometimes shoddy avionics work in these >50 year old planes - I would not discount the long term reliability benefit of doing so. Starting with a clean sheet also lets you lay out things exactly how you want for the long haul.

But if you want  just an engine monitor now while you wait for newer stuff, an EDM-900 or G5 is a no brainer.  I'd  personally favor the EDM-900 mounted in the left panel. You can dump the RPM/MP/Fuel pressure gauges in addition to the rickety old Garwin cluster.  You are also likely to be happier keeping the EDM-900 display as part of your final panel design than the diminutive G5 display.  You may also like having engine stuff separate from the main glass avionics to reduce the number of single points of failure.  But the G5 would be the cheaper temporary solution if you plan to replace everything with an integrated solution down the road.

Just to add my data point - I put about 60k into my panel >4 years ago, 6 months after I acquired my C. Tons of crappy wiring behind the panel got replaced.  It was not an economically driven decision, but it was partly safety driven. I loved the plane and wanted to fly it with modern stuff - these old planes are still great machines in the modern world that can justify such upgrades. 

If I were to do the same upgrade toward the end of this year, I would get the Max version of the Aspen pfd and do the Trutrak autopilot - which would give me a much more modern autopilot and save greater than 10amu off of the 60amu cost.  Still I've really enjoyed flying this panel for the last 4 years and will add a Wx500 stormscope, backup  G5 to get rid of the vac system, CiES senders, and Max upgrade for the pfd this fall.  In the future, the STEC will get replaced with a Trutrak possibly when it starts having any costly maintenance issues.  This is a never-ending process no matter what.  

 

[Marauder]

As others have stated, doing it all at once will save you significant money. The labor costs are in the opening of the plane and panel and all of the required wiring and hardware installation. The more that can be done at once, the cheaper it will be.

Before spending a penny though, think through your ownership situation. If the plane is a keeper like it is for Bob, Dev and myself, then by all means make the investment for everything you want and need. I will say as a long time owner of the same plane, I wished I had jumped on the certified GPS bandwagon earlier. But until 2012, ILS, VOR and heaven forbid NDB approaches were mainstay for me. It was only until the VOR approaches began getting decommissioned that I looked at a panel mounted GPS.

If you are flying in the system a fair amount, then having a capable autopilot lightens the workload. And a glass panel really adds a lot to the IFR experience (heck even VFR flying is more fun).

I did my upgrades piecemeal and know I did what any good army officer would tell you not to do “don’t pay for the same real estate twice”. I started way back in 1992 with an engine analyzer. I consider it a critical tool for single engine flying. I followed up with a fuel totalizer in 1993, a new NavCom in 1994, a slide in TKM in 1995 and then the big upgrade of a full function autopilot in 1998. That last upgrade really pointed out that I was an idiot for hand flying IFR 200+ hours a year for 7 years.

In 2012 I was at a crossroad. I knew I would be retiring within the next 10 years and I thought long and hard about what my retirement flying will look like. That is when I gave up the vision of flying a higher priced plane. I’m based on the east coast and although getting up in the mid teens would be nice for both summer and winter flying, the need just won’t be there.

That is when 92V became the “forever” plane and the more serious investments began. I completed the panel with the exception of upgrading the Aspens to the Max and the autopilot to the 3100. I did come real close last week to seriously pulling the Aspens for a 10” G3X. But when you see Don Kaye spending $24k for a Garmin GFC 500 autopilot you need to stop drinking the Garmin Kool-Aid and stick with reality. I priced out I would need to stick in another $40k (G3X, GFC 500 and G5) to get the same functionality of an Aspen Max with the 3100 would give me. Put down the cup and walk away from the Kool-Aid.

I have nearly finished the interior (just need new rugs) and have been working with David on doing the Gen 2 of the SabreCowl followed up with new glass and paint by next year.

Sit down when you look at his picture.



I will say doing the interior has a lot of benefits. First it gives you the feel of flying something newer. Secondly, it is a statement point for your passengers. If you have nervous first time flyers, having them sit in a worn cockpit does not promote a good mental image especially if a knob falls off or the wind-lace hits them in the head.









And you know you have arrived when you begin pimping out the ride!








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[Bob_Belville]

22 minutes ago, Marauder said:

And you know you have arrived when you begin pimping out the ride!








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You had me with the snugly blankets. The red motel touch gilds the lily. 

[gsxrpilot]

9 hours ago, Brian E. said:

 

@gsxrpilot I thought you already had the Aspen/IFD combo in your plane.  What's the purple lips looking control next to your prop control knob?

I like your yokes--I "need" drilled PTT....there's something else on my list

That was a picture of the panel in my M20C. And the purple lips are a pen holder. And on that note, let me say something in favor of the step by step approach to upgrading.  I won't disagree that doing it all at one time is certainly a cheaper way to do it. But here's a few reasons why I wouldn't recommend that for you. 

• It might not be your forever airplane. No offense, but you don't have an instrument rating yet. I'd do just the minimum to make instrument and cross country flying safe and enjoyable. You might decide you LOVE that type of flying and decide you need to move up from an M20C. @carusoam upgraded to an Ovation, I upgraded to a 252, others here have upgraded to  J's, Rockets, etc. Now there are also those who have settled in and will fly the plane they have as long as the medical will allow, i.e. @Bob_Belville and @Marauder. And their airplanes reflect that commitment. But in your position, I wouldn't make that commitment to the M20C just yet.
• You don't know which $50K or $100K panel you like best. Some love Aspen, some love Garmin, etc. I made an educated guess that I'd like the Aspen. But I only installed one of them. I can always add a second and third if indeed I love it. But if I decide it's crap and I want a G3X or G500, I'm only ripping out one of them ($6K) and not three of them ($25K)
• There is a way to go one step at a time without redoing work. It takes careful steps, but it can be done, and I've been able to do that and am very happy with the result.
• I reckon I can get close to the cost of a one time full upgrade, using my step by step approach. First, make careful steps so you don't ever have to back up. Second, never pay retail. Buy the parts as you find them at less than retail prices. 

Anyway, enough of that. As my Dad would say, I've gone from preachin' to meddlin'.

Here's a picture of the current panel in the 252... my forever airplane. It will get a second Aspen panel, an IFD440, and a new autopilot at some point. Followed by interior and then paint.

 

[Chris from PA]

Here's the left side of my '65 C. Around 5 AMU out the door. I've got a Garmin 530W in the middle and a Garmin portable on the yolk which are more than sufficient for my purposes. Near term plan is an ADSB solution and mid term are an autopilot and an engine monitor. My initial priorities were a standard "6 pack" and battery back up in case I had to turn the Master Switch "off" (or loss electrical power) and had to descend out of the clouds. Determine your priorities and go from there

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[M20C_AV8R]

 Here is mine, might give you a few ideas, I took more of a let’s work with what I have approach, new 650, dual G5’s, gad29b/gpss steering into existing century iib auto pilot, GTN 345r adsb  in/out and flight stream 210. Overall, very happy with the tech and future upgrades include audio panel and new auto-pilot tbd will help drive rearranging a few items in the panel.

Edited April 21, 2019 by M20C_AV8R

[kris_adams]

On 4/20/2019 at 1:36 PM, Marauder said:

 

This photo can never make it to a wife/husband/significant other that isn’t involved in the plane!!

[Guest]

For your wife just remove one zero from each item and all will be OK.

Clarence

[Brian E.]

On ‎4‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 8:25 PM, M20Doc said:

For your wife just remove one zero from each item and all will be OK.

Clarence

That's dirty Clarence!

 

Thanks to all for the panel pics--lots of good ideas.  At this point, I will likely just press with the JPI EDM install for safety, awareness and engine longevity purposes.

[steingar]

Says me if ca$h is that tight bail on the engine monitor and put in some IFR avionics.  There's been carbureted engine banging away under your cowl since the sixties.  How bad can it be?

That said, if you're not going to have the airplane for awhile I wouldn't put in anything.  The wisest airplane shopper buys the airplane that already had the stuff he wants.  You'll never get your investment back in the sale.

[1964-M20E]

On 4/21/2019 at 7:25 PM, M20Doc said:

For your wife just remove one zero from each item and all will be OK.

Clarence

Just make sure the zeros are on the right side of the decimal point.  Otherwise she will catch on to what you are dong.

 

 

[1964-M20E]

On 4/19/2019 at 8:40 PM, Brian E. said:

I'm caught in the cone of confusion regarding the best path to upgrade my plane and would like some counsel from my MS friends.   I've read all these threads on avionics upgrades and I'd like some thoughts on my situation.  My primary interest was in a EDM-900 while it was on sale this month.  I was/am looking to do it right--CIES fuel sensors, carb temp probe, etc.  Since my panel is all original my intent was to take care of the right side panel and remove the Garwin gauges, LORAN, ADF, RPM gauge, manifold and fuel pressure gauge as well.  All told this is about a $9k project for this phase.   

The reason I wanted the EDM 900 is that I have ~200 hrs on a remanufactured engine and I'd like to get as much life out of it as I can.  I don't feel I get enough fidelity from the factory gauges to even let me lean it properly or even monitor CHTs.

The rub...

We all saw the G3X touch was recently released.  Additionally I've began my instrument training and feel I will "need" a navigator or a GPS solution of some sorts.  Although there are many VOR and ILS airports nearby, my homedrome only has GPS based approaches (and a VOR/DME but I don't have DME).   So the question is would I be better off in the long run doing a singular but larger upgrade that addresses ADS-B, PFD/MFD with integrated EIS and a GPS nav system?  I have read the engine monitor discussion thread where @gsxrpilot comments strongly about the value of a dedicated engine monitor versus an integrated system buried behind menus.

Final comment, I am hoping to remain free from Garmin.  I know it works but I'd like to have an inter-operable system that gives me some flexibility for whatever the future may hold.  I'd do Dynon if it was certified (and relased), Avidyne or whatever else.  Like many I'm hoping that the recent Garmin release will encourage more competition in this market versus run them out of business.

I look forward to your feedback!

 

 

 

 

Brain

We need pics of you panel to help you spend money recklessly.

 

I  mean wisely.

 

If you want GPS box and stay away from Garmin Avidyne is your friend.  I like my IFD540 with the APX322 remote mounted transponder.  It takes care of ADSB out and is controlled from the 540.  I do like having a separate transponder with it's own interface but panel space made this decision for me.

As for engine monitors there are several available just depends on what panel space and wallet capacity you have for them.

 

 

[Marauder]

Just make sure the zeros are on the right side of the decimal point.  Otherwise she will catch on to what you are dong.
 
 

Just tell her that knucklehead Marauder forgot to put in the decimal point.


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