AlexLev Posted April 3, 2019 Report Posted April 3, 2019 (edited) Just wanted to start a discussion as I'm curious if you find yourself a patient aviator. Is being patient necessary for being a good aviator? How does patience relate to aviation maintenance? How does patience relate to cross country flight? If you are mostly characteristically patient, but were characteristically inpatient before, how did you cultivate the quality of patience? Edited April 3, 2019 by AlexLev Quote
bonal Posted April 3, 2019 Report Posted April 3, 2019 Come on damn it lets get some responses 2 4 Quote
Marauder Posted April 3, 2019 Report Posted April 3, 2019 Just wanted to start a discussion as I'm curious if you find yourself a patient aviator. Is being patient necessary for being a good aviator? How does patience relate to aviation maintenance? How does patience relate to cross country flight? If you are mostly characteristically patient, but were characteristically inpatient before, how did you cultivate the quality of patience? Alex, in my case patience came with age and experience. I was and still am sometimes impatient but I find I control it better now that I am older. I think what makes for a good aviator is a balance between skill and judgement. Patience plays a role typically with the ability not to rush to a judgement when a decision needs to be made. An aviator can be very skilled but lack significant judgement or rushes to judgment without weighing the facts. When it comes to maintenance, I learned that doing it right may take time and to be patient. I think understanding the task at hand from an informed pilot perspective helps set expectations. Is there something in particular that is driving you to ask these thought provoking questions?Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro 4 Quote
carusoam Posted April 3, 2019 Report Posted April 3, 2019 The role of patience in life... Being patient can keep you alive... The more patient you are, the more changes you can notice... If you don’t notice any of the changes going on around you... That can be a tremendous challenge... people are more willing to help a patient guy... what are your choices? What would you select, why? Some people like to put on their ”‘i’m From NYC” behave with impatience, like they have seen portrayed on TV... Find the clip of one fine pilot telling ATC how wrong they were.... the pilot was right and was sent packing anyway... If impatience works... know that patience will work better... If impatience is what works for you... work on your patience... don’t be surprised when it works better for you. Unfortunately, impatience is what we learn easily... patience takes extra effort... Patience is worth it. how to learn this for yourself... grow old, gain experience... experiment along the way... watch others experiment along the way... Want to see some threads that define both... to see the success of the OPs or the lack of success for those who were in a rush...? Best regards, -a- 4 Quote
bonal Posted April 3, 2019 Report Posted April 3, 2019 I can't think of any situation where impatience would be an advantage. A patient mind is going to be thoughtful and more logical 1 Quote
Tony Starke Posted April 3, 2019 Report Posted April 3, 2019 1 hour ago, AlexLev said: Just wanted to start a discussion as I'm curious if you find yourself a patient aviator. Is being patient necessary for being a good aviator? How does patience relate to aviation maintenance? How does patience relate to cross country flight? If you are mostly characteristically patient, but were characteristically inpatient before, how did you cultivate the quality of patience? Ain’t nobody got time for this. 2 Quote
AlexLev Posted April 3, 2019 Author Report Posted April 3, 2019 Love the replies so far. @Marauder - to answer your questions as to why I am asking; just some self reflection and wanting to start a discussion. I am experiencing a serious conflict with a shop and I am reflecting if a lack of patience on my part is partly the cause. It leads me to think about other instances of patience & impatience and its overall role in aviation and in life. Is being patient a choice, as @carusoam eludes to? Are younger people inherently more inpatient than older people due to their lack of experience? Can being impatient be an advantage, as @bonal asks. That's an interesting thought. Depends on the definition of patience, I suppose. One source defines it as: "the capacity to accept or tolerate delay, trouble, or suffering without getting angry or upset." In which case, it's more talking about how a person handles a delay or suffering. I don't think being impatient can be an advantage under these circumstances, unless the very act of impatience teaches one patience and it's probably never something that's ultimately learned, but moreso practiced. Where it becomes interesting to me is the difference between persistence and impatience. If one is characteristically persistent, can they be perceived as impatient? Is there a fine line between tenacity and impatience? to apply to aviation: When does persistence to get to a destination and find a way through the weather turn into get there-itis? One could be patient and wait out storms, only to be riddled with fatigue and have their judgment impaired. When does persistence in calling often to get an update and stay in good communication with a shop turn into impatience? Who is impatient? The customer calling or the shop in not being patient or with good communication? All just food for thought in the hopes of a deeper discussion, no right answers. 2 Quote
carusoam Posted April 3, 2019 Report Posted April 3, 2019 Risk analysis... Get there itis... becomes a problem when the wheels fall off the plan... If impatience keeps you from planning or following a plan... this is a horrible trait for flying... Safe flying takes loads of training, planning, and executing plans... Impatience... that is the crux and a strong sign of what is going to befall the errant pilot next... Persistence is a good trait. Methodically staying on plan. Trying to achieve the goal... not easy to confuse persistence with impatience... If life was easy... everyone would be flying a Mooney...! Expect impatience to be used as a crutch... picture a 20 year old telling you... I did it because I had to... or it’s not my fault because... live in a house with teenagers and watch the logic used when their friends are around... take good notes. They probably look just like mine... Then there is the guy who practiced impatience... using fear to motivate his kids... life in the 70s...probably can’t do that anymore... for a reason. He must have had a plan ready to go each time a kid would show up at home... it looked impromptu, to the outsider... he had four boys... by the fourth one, there was nothing impromptu about it... same thing different day.... Got anything else? Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
carusoam Posted April 3, 2019 Report Posted April 3, 2019 Working a piece of metal on a lathe requires patience to get the part to turn out right... same with working stiff leather in an industrial sewing machine... What happens when a tool breaks.... and the part gets ruined... that’s when patience is needed most. Patience is what allows for control in tough situations... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
Andy95W Posted April 3, 2019 Report Posted April 3, 2019 It's not really about patience, but it does seem to apply here: ------------------------------------------- "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; Courage to change the things I can; And the wisdom to know the difference." ----------------------------------------- Alex, didn't you hitchhike back to Buffalo after dropping off your Mooney for its engine overhaul? That took a lot of patience, IMO. You had the courage and fortitude to do what had to be done, but the patience to put up with the long trek home. You probably even enjoyed the trip, when it was all said and done. So enjoy the journey! There will always be more things to do and more mountains to climb. It's the man that can enjoy the process as well as the final result that enjoys life the most. Ralph Waldo Emerson said it first, but I think Steven Tyler and Aerosmith said it best in their song "Amazing": "And how high can you fly with broken wings? Life's a journey not a destination And I just can't tell just what tomorrow brings…" 2 Quote
carusoam Posted April 3, 2019 Report Posted April 3, 2019 MS teaches the classics... -S. Tyler... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
MB65E Posted April 3, 2019 Report Posted April 3, 2019 We named our M20E “Patients” Keep the faith! -Matt 2 Quote
carusoam Posted April 3, 2019 Report Posted April 3, 2019 Favorite topic of the night.... Use your impatience for good... It takes strength to control your impatience... Control your impatience... Use your impatience to drive good decisions... If you are so impatient, you can’t drive 200nm, 400nm round trip, every other weekend... This can also apply to your close family members... sitting in a car can make them appear to be very impatient.... horribly impatient at times... especially if they are around two years old... Learn how to fly a plane... cut the driving time in half... everyone gets more patient in the end... especially if diaper changing doesn’t have time to occur along the way... Lets say people in your family are more patient if the flight is under two hours... so you get a Mooney and the flight is only 1.5 hours... Even the people waiting for you at the other end are more patient, while they are waiting... If you want to experience the ultimate in patience... get the IR, and fly a newer Mooney... people are more patient sitting in a comfortable seat, surrounded by a finished interior, flown by a more experienced pilot... I bet this works for additional ratings like the Commercial or ATP... Yes, the newer Mooney will get you there in 1:15 or so... Not that the extra :15 time saved is going to do very much... but the people that would be uncomfortable in a fully worn out Mooney, dodging clouds, over the Atlantic, where John Jr. came to rest, are now calmly sleeping while you are at the controls, of a well appointed, fully IFR, Mooney! Sometimes the difference between being patient and being impatient is the amount and quality of the sleep you/ or she have/has collected... Get a Fitbit HR and take notes... 1) So If impatience motivates you to get off the couch to get your PPL... This is probably a good thing... 2) If impatience for driving a car for hours in traffic, so your kids can know their grandparents, (like you promised your parents)... this is a good thing... 3) If impatience for flying around, in a ratty old plane, allows for a fantastic upgrade... don’t let the opportunity go to waste... Go forth and Wield your impatience like the internal tool, that it was meant to be..! Note: Never wield impatience externally... that is considered an improper loss of control by many... kind of like swearing in public. Easy to do, and near impossible to undo... If you negotiate sales deals... control is everything... be in control of yourself, at all costs... Is that what the OP had in mind? Impatience is bad... Or Impatience is good... Or Other people’s impatience is motivating... PP thoughts only, I used to sell some fast production machines... solved a few impatient people’s manufacturing challenges... I liked impatient people with machine speed challenges... they were my best customers... Best regards, -a- Quote
Hank Posted April 3, 2019 Report Posted April 3, 2019 4 hours ago, AlexLev said: Just wanted to start a discussion as I'm curious if you find yourself a patient aviator. Is being patient necessary for being a good aviator? How does patience relate to aviation maintenance? How does patience relate to cross country flight? If you are mostly characteristically patient, but were characteristically inpatient before, how did you cultivate the quality of patience? Patience isn't really needed for XC trips in a Mooney, even a C like mine. But for maintenance? I'm out of patience now, my annual inspection passed 60 days last week . . . . No major work or deferred items. Also no owner involvement. Never again!! 1 Quote
aviatoreb Posted April 3, 2019 Report Posted April 3, 2019 I'll bite. It takes patience sometimes to make the decision to wait - for example to decide not to go if that must be the decision for the weather of the day for example, even if otherwise you would be in a hurry. So patience is one of the essential components of WISDOM. Wisdom is the critical feature that distinguishes not only aviators but many from all walks of life. 2 Quote
Marauder Posted April 3, 2019 Report Posted April 3, 2019 Love the replies so far. [mention=9886]Marauder[/mention] - to answer your questions as to why I am asking; just some self reflection and wanting to start a discussion. I am experiencing a serious conflict with a shop and I am reflecting if a lack of patience on my part is partly the cause. It leads me to think about other instances of patience & impatience and its overall role in aviation and in life. Is being patient a choice, as [mention=7104]carusoam[/mention] eludes to? Are younger people inherently more inpatient than older people due to their lack of experience? Can being impatient be an advantage, as [mention=11990]bonal[/mention] asks. That's an interesting thought. Depends on the definition of patience, I suppose. One source defines it as: "the capacity to accept or tolerate delay, trouble, or suffering without getting angry or upset." In which case, it's more talking about how a person handles a delay or suffering. I don't think being impatient can be an advantage under these circumstances, unless the very act of impatience teaches one patience and it's probably never something that's ultimately learned, but moreso practiced. Where it becomes interesting to me is the difference between persistence and impatience. If one is characteristically persistent, can they be perceived as impatient? Is there a fine line between tenacity and impatience? to apply to aviation: When does persistence to get to a destination and find a way through the weather turn into get there-itis? One could be patient and wait out storms, only to be riddled with fatigue and have their judgment impaired. When does persistence in calling often to get an update and stay in good communication with a shop turn into impatience? Who is impatient? The customer calling or the shop in not being patient or with good communication? All just food for thought in the hopes of a deeper discussion, no right answers. Alex,I blame a lot of our impatience on the way the world works today. Back when I first started working if something was important enough, you called. Most of the time when you placed the call they weren’t at their desk or were on another call. That’s when the secretary (yes, that is what we called them back then), picked up your call, took a note on one of those pink “while you were out” memo slips and placed it on your desk. Today if you call someone (if you even do that) and can’t reach them, you send them a text, an email or heavens forbid, leave a voicemail. The same goes for commerce. Look at what Amazon has done to the market. When I order from Amazon I’m disappointed when I see that it is a 2 day delivery. I WANT IT TOMORROW!!!!The evolution of technology puts us into a constant touch mode and I’m not so sure that is such a good thing. Especially when it comes to patience. Being patient for some comes naturally, for others, it is an acquired skill and for the rest it will never happen. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro 4 Quote
AH-1 Cobra Pilot Posted April 3, 2019 Report Posted April 3, 2019 Patience for what? It all depends... I have patience for ignorance, I have none for stupidity. I have patience for weather, I have none for lack of fuel. I have patience for lack of skill, I have none for lack of trying. I have patience for someone with manners, I have none for the impertinent. I have patience for error, I have none for incompetence. 2 Quote
DXB Posted April 3, 2019 Report Posted April 3, 2019 I agree Amazon Prime Next Day Delivery has given us a wildly skewed sense of what good service looks like. Working with an aviation mechanic to identify a problem, plan a solution, implement the solution, determine a fair cost, manage the timeline for the fix, and validate a fix that your life can literally depend upon is about as different from click'n ship as customer service can get. Although A&Ps are generally not highly paid, there's no shortage of work for them in GA, and so many can pick and choose what they want to do, whether or not they want to prioritize a particular job, or whether to put up with a particular personality in a customer. So it's really an art to get the best out of each mechanic and shop. Building relationships over time and careful communication tailored to the individual mechanic's style helps. Knowing a lot about the issue being dealt with in advance helps a lot also. My general approach has become one of careful advance research, never trying to nickel and dime on costs, providing clear written guidance, occasional pleasant but firm followup on the time frame and costs. In other words go for good over fast and cheap. Good, not taking an eternity, not blatantly gouged on price is a huge victory to me. Quote
Skates97 Posted April 3, 2019 Report Posted April 3, 2019 5 hours ago, aviatoreb said: I'll bite. It takes patience sometimes to make the decision to wait - for example to decide not to go if that must be the decision for the weather of the day for example, even if otherwise you would be in a hurry. So patience is one of the essential components of WISDOM. Wisdom is the critical feature that distinguishes not only aviators but many from all walks of life. Ah WISDOM, much different in my book than intelligence although some people think they are one and the same. My grandfather, who dropped out of high school his senior year to work, was one of the wisest men I have ever known. I can't add much to what others have said, but like many I have become more patient with age. Although I notice my lack of tolerance for certain things (*cough-bad drivers-cough) has decreased. I may be fast approaching the old man "Get off my lawn!!" stage. 1 Quote
aviatoreb Posted April 3, 2019 Report Posted April 3, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Skates97 said: Ah WISDOM, much different in my book than intelligence although some people think they are one and the same. My grandfather, who dropped out of high school his senior year to work, was one of the wisest men I have ever known. I can't add much to what others have said, but like many I have become more patient with age. Although I notice my lack of tolerance for certain things (*cough-bad drivers-cough) has decreased. I may be fast approaching the old man "Get off my lawn!!" stage. Very well said - and I second that - Wisdom is not at all the same thing as intelligence. (But what I was describing is that patience is an important part of Wisdom). I am in one of those professions where people tend to think gee whiz how smart am I - I am a professor as many of you know, a math professor. And I have many friends, colleagues, competitors, and others...who are professors - generally PhDs all of us. I can say that all are well educated and many are sharp as a whip when it comes to the skills of science, etc that we work in, but somehow some are wise, some are kind, and some are...opposite. It is bizarre when you meet people who are brilliant academically but opposite in those other two attributes which are also unrelated. (E.g. you can be very unwise but very kind, and you can be very slow of wit but very wise and kind)...(and of course educated does not necessarily mean smart as there are counter examples we all know in both directions). Edited April 3, 2019 by aviatoreb 2 Quote
larryb Posted April 3, 2019 Report Posted April 3, 2019 My pet peeve with GA these days is down time. We just accept weeks of down time as normal. I personally suffered several weeks of down-time due to an airspeed safety switch problem. It was replaced at annual. But the calibration was off. Back to the manufacturer. Came back inop. Back to the manufacturer. 3rd time the charm. Now, if this is your car the mechanic goes to the parts department and you have your car back in a day. The Aspen Max upgrade is another example. They want you to take your your current Aspens, making the plane un-airworthy. Ship them back, 2 weeks at Aspen being rebuilt into Max, return shipping, install. So at least 3 weeks down-time. Probably more with the inevitable delays. Want to avoid that? They will do an exchange for $500 extra. Per unit. $1500 extra in my case. No thanks. I'd like the upgrade but not with those conditions. 1 Quote
mooniac15u Posted April 3, 2019 Report Posted April 3, 2019 When I work with young fencers I coach them on being patient but not passive. They should always be thinking strategically and trying to steer the match to the desired outcome but they must be patient in finding the right opportunities to execute their actions. It seems to me that the same is true in aviation. 1 Quote
Austintatious Posted April 4, 2019 Report Posted April 4, 2019 I learned patience when I got a saltwater aquarium. NOTHING good happens fast with one of them! Quote
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