donkaye, MCFI Posted January 6, 2019 Report Posted January 6, 2019 Next month will be 25 years that I have been flight instructing. Yesterday, I sent up a student to take the instrument checkride who was one of the best instruments students I've had during that time. He made my job easy. Here's a summary of his checkride. Experienced or not, how would you have done on this test? As I expected, he passed with flying colors. Sam Judd Instrument Checkride - Google Docs.pdf 2 Quote
carusoam Posted January 6, 2019 Report Posted January 6, 2019 Nicely written summary! Kind of like the work Richard is known for regarding his training for his PPL... Thanks for sharing the details, Don. Great learning exercise for anyone training for their IR. Best regards, -a- Quote
M20C_AV8R Posted January 6, 2019 Report Posted January 6, 2019 Thanks for sharing Don, helpful perspective and info as I am currently working on my IR 1 1 Quote
Yooper Rocketman Posted January 6, 2019 Report Posted January 6, 2019 Very nice Don! Brings back memories. Tom Quote
thinwing Posted January 6, 2019 Report Posted January 6, 2019 Very complete write up from Sam...I wouldn’t have (or was too pooped at the time to remember my own cert flight)One thing I found surprising is that the examiner allowed autopilot use during the hold entry.This was definitely not allowed in the eighties when I did my flight.Of course it is moot point ,because the Maule I owned at the time didn’t have an autopilot.Sounds like lost comms and partial panel ops haven’t changed much but I recall on the Oral ,besides flying to the clearance limit ,FAA answer included nearest VFR and obvious answer of upon encountering Vmc to deviate and land visually...thanks for report and great job congrats Quote
jaylw314 Posted January 6, 2019 Report Posted January 6, 2019 15 minutes ago, thinwing said: Very complete write up from Sam...I wouldn’t have (or was too pooped at the time to remember my own cert flight)One thing I found surprising is that the examiner allowed autopilot use during the hold entry.This was definitely not allowed in the eighties when I did my flight.Of course it is moot point ,because the Maule I owned at the time didn’t have an autopilot.Sounds like lost comms and partial panel ops haven’t changed much but I recall on the Oral ,besides flying to the clearance limit ,FAA answer included nearest VFR and obvious answer of upon encountering Vmc to deviate and land visually...thanks for report and great job congrats I was kind of surprised on my IR checkride that they didn't have me demonstrate the autopilot. My instructor had cautioned me that if there's any equipment that isn't in a typical trainer aircraft, they're going to grill you on it and have you demonstrate using it. Quote
thinwing Posted January 6, 2019 Report Posted January 6, 2019 12 minutes ago, jaylw314 said: I was kind of surprised on my IR checkride that they didn't have me demonstrate the autopilot. My instructor had cautioned me that if there's any equipment that isn't in a typical trainer aircraft, they're going to grill you on it and have you demonstrate using it. I think they should be allowed to demonstrate use Quote
midlifeflyer Posted January 6, 2019 Report Posted January 6, 2019 26 minutes ago, thinwing said: I think they should be allowed to demonstrate use The FAA's attitude toward autopilots has changed significantly with both the advent of "technically advanced aircraft" and the concept of testing ADM and resource management. Back in the day, it was probably the rare checkride in which use was tested; now it would be the very rare checkride in which its use was not tested, since autopilots are mentioned in a number of Instrument ACS tasks. As Appendix 7 puts it: To assist in management of the aircraft during the practical test, the applicant is expected to demonstrate automation management skills by utilizing installed equipment such as autopilot, avionics and systems displays, and/or a flight management system (FMS). The evaluator is expected to test the applicant’s knowledge of the systems that are installed and operative during both the oral and flight portions of the practical test. Quote
EricJ Posted January 6, 2019 Report Posted January 6, 2019 My autopilot was inop during my IR checkride, so I didn't get to see how it might be handled on a typical checkride. My G5 HSI was newly installed, though, and when the examiner "failed" my AI just prior to flying an LPV approach, while I was fine flying without it I mentioned (even though I'd never practiced it), that in IMC with an actual AI failure I'd switch the G5 to PFD mode. He indicated that was fine and I could do that if I wanted to...so I did. After about a half minute staring at an instrument I'd essentially never used before I decided that that was probably not the best time to learn it, so I switched it back to the HSI mode and completed the approach. He was fine with that, too. Quote
whiskytango Posted January 6, 2019 Report Posted January 6, 2019 The school where I did my IR training about 20 years ago (GATTS in Manhattan KS) did all of the training with the AI covered, i.e. partial panel all of the time. This was a great confidence builder for the inevitable vacuum / gyro instrument failure. The DPE had a great method for testing your ability to function while being distracted: He asked me to enter a multi turn hold at the IAF and then fly an ILS while reciting my "life story". The autopilot was never used in the checkride, and was only briefly used during training. Times have changed, and I think it is important to integrate detailed autopilot use into training and the checkride. Maybe it would have saved JFK Jr's life, among many others. Kudos to Don Kaye for clearly doing a great job of preparing his student for the checkride, and more importantly, safe IFR flight. 3 Quote
larryb Posted January 7, 2019 Report Posted January 7, 2019 Brings back memories for me too. Same instructor. Same examiner. And same airport for check ride. Thank you Don. Quote
Jeff_S Posted January 7, 2019 Report Posted January 7, 2019 I would have failed because I would have choked on writing an $800 check to the examiner! Did I read that right? Is that the going rate in California? 5 Quote
kpaul Posted January 7, 2019 Report Posted January 7, 2019 4 minutes ago, Jeff_S said: I would have failed because I would have choked on writing an $800 check to the examiner! Did I read that right? Is that the going rate in California? I paid just over half of that ($450) for my ATP flying out of Oakland. $800 is insane. Quote
ArtVandelay Posted January 7, 2019 Report Posted January 7, 2019 It’s $500 in south Florida, but they usually don’t take an entire day, and they can schedule 2 in one day.Tom Quote
thinwing Posted January 7, 2019 Report Posted January 7, 2019 20 hours ago, jaylw314 said: I was kind of surprised on my IR checkride that they didn't have me demonstrate the autopilot. My instructor had cautioned me that if there's any equipment that isn't in a typical trainer aircraft, they're going to grill you on it and have you demonstrate using it.,mine Quote
thinwing Posted January 7, 2019 Report Posted January 7, 2019 800...yikes ,mine was 75 bucks !Sam did report examiner had to flyin and was booked 2 months out Quote
1964-M20E Posted January 7, 2019 Report Posted January 7, 2019 Nice write up. However, $800 sounds high for a check ride. My helicopter ride was $400 (3 yrs ago) and I believe the same for my IR (6 yrs ago). Congrats. Quote
donkaye, MCFI Posted January 7, 2019 Author Report Posted January 7, 2019 32 minutes ago, thinwing said: 800...yikes ,mine was 75 bucks !Sam did report examiner had to flyin and was booked 2 months out We arrived and the examination started at 9:00am. We left at 4:30pm. By my calculations that is 7½ hours and that didn't include the round trip time from Paso Robles to Salinas to give the exam. That translates into $106.67/hour. On an hourly basis I charge $100/hour. His charge was not unreasonable. Although we didn't talk money specifically, we did discuss checkrides specifically with him. This checkride covered all the bases, as it should for a rating that could really get you into trouble if you are not up to the task. We discussed how some examiners (who are not now DPEs) would run through 4 checkrides per day. The FAA investigated and they lost their DPE authority. This Examiner said you could only effectively do one checkride per day. He had a 3" binder with a well planned out plan of action which specifically included scenarios related to the few questions my student missed on the written examination. My guess is that those DPEs who charge ½ the rate and do the exam in ½ the time are not giving a thorough examination. Also, it should be noted that there is a severe shortage of DPEs in our area, which he confirmed. 2 Quote
Raptor05121 Posted January 7, 2019 Report Posted January 7, 2019 Thanks for posting. I'll use this to brush up- I'm about to go for my checkride 3 Quote
thinwing Posted January 7, 2019 Report Posted January 7, 2019 36 minutes ago, donkaye said: We arrived and the examination started at 9:00am. We left at 4:30pm. By my calculations that is 7½ hours. That translates into $106.67/hour. On an hourly basis I charge $100/hour. His charge was not unreasonable. Although we didn't talk money specifically, we did discuss checkrides specifically with him. This checkride covered all the bases, as it should for a rating that could really get you into trouble if you are not up to the task. We discussed how some examiners (who are not now DPEs) would run through 4 checkrides per day. The FAA investigated and they lost their DPE authority. This Examiner said you could only effectively do one checkride per day. My guess is that those DPEs who charge ½ the rate in ½ the time are not giving a thorough examination. I was curious Don because of wide variety of national pay rates differing by over 100%.Paysa lists average pay for DPE as about 120k yearly,125k for top 10%.Sams dpe is booked months in advance ,so assuming doing 20 exams monthly with 10 days off monthly,he would be making 16k monthly or 192 k yearly .Is this due to current number of dpe s in your area close to San Francisco Bay Area?s?FSANA (flight school association of North America) states in 1989 there were 1600 dpe s in the system conducting 105113 (95%) of all flight tests in 1989,5 years after I took my test.In 2014 ,FSANA lists only 900 examiners conducting only 42440 tests given.Also actual tests administered by FAA employee examiners have dropped to less than 1% leaving DPE s to pickup slack.That means that the average DPE is only doing a paltry 47 exams a year or about 4 a month!So ,why the booking backlog of 2 months?!Also ,according to my unofficial survey online,400 does appear to be average examiner fee ,at least in the Midwest.I also found one outlier in Texas charging 700 .Calif fees appear highest in Nation ,averaging about 650 for instrument /pvt tests...The most reasonable ones seem to be working mostly students from large flight schools ,at least for pvt / instr tests. Quote
donkaye, MCFI Posted January 7, 2019 Author Report Posted January 7, 2019 42 minutes ago, thinwing said: 42 minutes ago, thinwing said: I was curious Don because of wide variety of national pay rates differing by over 100%.Paysa lists average pay for DPE as about 120k yearly,125k for top 10%.Sams dpe is booked months in advance ,so assuming doing 20 exams monthly with 10 days off monthly,he would be making 16k monthly or 192 k yearly .Is this due to current number of dpe s in your area close to San Francisco Bay Area?s?FSANA (flight school association of North America) states in 1989 there were 1600 dpe s in the system conducting 105113 (95%) of all flight tests in 1989,5 years after I took my test.In 2014 ,FSANA lists only 900 examiners conducting only 42440 tests given.Also actual tests administered by FAA employee examiners have dropped to less than 1% leaving DPE s to pickup slack.That means that the average DPE is only doing a paltry 47 exams a year or about 4 a month!So ,why the booking backlog of 2 months?!Also ,according to my unofficial survey online,400 does appear to be average examiner fee ,at least in the Midwest.I also found one outlier in Texas charging 700 .Calif fees appear highest in Nation ,averaging about 650 for instrument /pvt tests...The most reasonable ones seem to be working mostly students from large flight schools ,at least for pvt / instr tests. Look, I, too, thought the fee was high until I worked the numbers. In the Bay Area, if you are making $150,000 per year you are in the lower middle class, and can barely afford a nice apartment. Forget about buying a house. I have tenants who are making $300,00 per year who can't afford a home nearby their place of work. No wonder people are leaving California in droves. I would, too, if it were not for the climate and need to be nearby my Real Estate. Quote
thinwing Posted January 7, 2019 Report Posted January 7, 2019 Got it,we recently sold my Moms house to a couple from the Bay Area...we listed it here in Sacramento and it sold for full price in 4 days with buyer paying cash and remarking about being able to buy horse property with 2 acres and a barn with corrals for under 700k.Impossible in Bay Area. Quote
carusoam Posted January 7, 2019 Report Posted January 7, 2019 One needs to compare to a day long defense of a PhD doctoral thesis... (professor input invited and appreciated) The student has to be familiar with all levels of detail in what he/she has been studying for years... The differences.... no specific costs related to the test day... more than one person asking detailed questions... The similarities... pass the check ride once, it stays with you for life... It is fully useable around the world... so many more and specific levels of experience to be gained ahead... The IR is quite an achievement, and opens an important door on the road to flying personally, and professionally.... The economics of doing things in certain parts of California are alarming...? Best regards, -a- Quote
kris_adams Posted January 7, 2019 Report Posted January 7, 2019 $300 here back in 2010...Mine took about 5 hours or so start to finish. I also had the "pleasure" of having the examiner and the FSDO sit through my oral and the flight. I guess the examiners have to be reviewed by the FSDO every year (or so not exactly sure) and I was fortunate enough to have 2 guys asking me questions. I passed thankfully so this just gives me a good story to tell! -Kris Quote
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