It's Back, Buyer Beware !!!!!!

[N9937c]

Dan

When a factory employee that produced the component in question tells me that it is our policy NOT to issue STC paper work to install a "used" unit in a certified aircraft.          NO             That pretty much precludes the chance of it happening.

I stated in the above posts as to MAYBE one reason why the aircraft in question would be returned to service. The ASPEN unit IS a VERY desirable addition to ANY aircraft!

As far as this thread being continued, My post was to hopefully preclude ANYONE purchasing the aircraft in question thinking they would have an item of considerable value even if the aircraft stucture itself were found UNAIRWORTHY at some future date.

I also stated the facts of the issuance of an STC in my second post. WITHOUT permission from the STC holder, You have NO STC. Thank you for clarifying that.

larry

[Shadrach]

Quote: N9937c

As to my conversation, I did tell the Aspen guy that the unit would be installed by my local avionics shop that is an Aspen dealer. His reply was that Aspen's policy was NO on STC's for used equipment.

I will call Aspen monday morning.

larry

[RJBrown]

 I don't want to be rude but the understanding I am getting about Aspen as a company scares me.

 This conversation and the responses by an Aspen owner? employee? make me much less interested in an Aspen product for my plane. Either Aspen has a product so temperamental that they must control every step in its life to maintain a semblance of safety or they want to control the product at every level so closely as to force additional revenue streams. Either attitude is unacceptable. With a KX 155 I can have one pulled out of a plane checked by my avionics shop and put in another plane. Plug and play so to speak. If Aspen needs $$$$ to allow me the privilege to swap an installed and operating unit from one plane to another there is a big problem.

 It sounds, from the posting of Peter, that if I buy an Aspen product I really don't own it at all. I am only using it at the behest of its "godlike" creator.  Someone is either a total control freak OR acting like one because he does not trust his equipment.

[Shadrach]

Quote: RJBrown

 I don't want to be rude but the understanding I am getting about Aspen as a company scares me.

 This conversation and the responses by an Aspen owner? employee? make me much less interested in an Aspen product for my plane. Either Aspen has a product so temperamental that they must control every step in its life to maintain a semblance of safety or they want to control the product at every level so closely as to force additional revenue streams. Either attitude is unacceptable. With a KX 155 I can have one pulled out of a plane checked by my avionics shop and put in another plane. Plug and play so to speak. If Aspen needs $$$$ to allow me the privilege to swap an installed and operating unit from one plane to another there is a big problem.

 It sounds, from the posting of Peter, that if I buy an Aspen product I really don't own it at all. I am only using it at the behest of its "godlike" creator.  Someone is either a total control freak OR acting like one because he does not trust his equipment.

[N601RX]

Looks like the seller just added this yesterday.

On Jun-11-11 at 13:11:32 PDT, seller added the following information:

NO KNOWN UNDOCUMENTED DAMAGE

[triple8s]

"It sounds, from the posting of Peter, that if I buy an Aspen product I really don't own it at all. I am only using it at the behest of its "godlike" creator.  Someone is either a total control freak OR acting like one because he does not trust his equipment"

In the busniess world and the sue happy society that we live in I see exactly why Aspen and lots of others do what they do. It is all a matter of protecting the business, the owners, and even the employees. I would bet that the Aspen unit even though it has been submerged probably works just fine and may even continue to work fine, however, I wouldnt want my name on it knowing it had been underwater or transfered from one aircraft to another. How would you like to sleep at nitght knowing someone may be hauling the family to the Bahamas depending on the unit in IMC. NOT I no thank you.

[Shadrach]

Quote: triple8s

In the busniess world and the sue happy society that we live in I see exactly why Aspen and lots of others do what they do. It is all a matter of protecting the business, the owners, and even the employees. I would bet that the Aspen unit even though it has been submerged probably works just fine and may even continue to work fine, however, I wouldnt want my name on it knowing it had been underwater or transfered from one aircraft to another. How would you like to sleep at nitght knowing someone may be hauling the family to the Bahamas depending on the unit in IMC. NOT I no thank you.

[Shadrach]

double post...

[peter]

Quote: N9937c

As to my conversation, I did tell the Aspen guy that the unit would be installed by my local avionics shop that is an Aspen dealer. His reply was that Aspen's policy was NO on STC's for used equipment.

I will call Aspen monday morning.

larry

[peter]

Quote: RJBrown

 It sounds, from the posting of Peter, that if I buy an Aspen product I really don't own it at all. I am only using it at the behest of its "godlike" creator.  Someone is either a total control freak OR acting like one because he does not trust his equipment.

[OR75]

Very simple question:

If a used PFD equipment is airworthy and does not require any repairs,  how much will it cost me to have Aspen allow me to transfer the STC I purchased to someone else ?.

I respect Aspen (and every OEM) choice of how they want to run their business. I only need to understand the value (and depreciation) of what I am buying. 

[jetdriven]

I think what Peter is saying, is the Aspen is so technologically advanced, that only Aspen can certify it as airworthy and issue an 8130-3 on it.   I can understand that  

The big question is what is the cost of that recert, and the cost of the STC permission.  If it costs 6K to recertify a used Aspen, and another 6K to install it,  you have still effectively killed its resale value.  It is same as new at that point. 

[peter]

Aspen does not charge to use our STCs.  We do *not* have a policy preventing installation of used equipment under our STC.

We have previously provided permission letters to Aspen dealers to install used equipment.  A separate letter is needed because our blanket STC permission statement only covers new equipment installations.  No one has ever been charged to use an Aspen owned STC to install Aspen equipment.

The recertification process is the method by which it is determined if a used piece of equipment is serviceable/airworthy. The cost of recertifying equipment depends on whether there is anything wrong with it when it comes back in, and how many system components require recertification.   For example, inspection of the display assembly is under $400. Complete remanufacture is under $1000.  Inspection costs are creditable toward a subsequent remanufacture.

Unlike some of the legacy avionics identified in this discussion (that use hand soldered "through hole" electronic components) Aspen's electronics comprise of machine-placed surface-mount components.  This means there are no field-repairable electronics in the equipment. 

It's important to note that working on the Aspen displays requires special tools, knowledge, software and documentation.  As of today, there are no facilities outside of the Aspen factory that have made the investment needed to repair or recertify Aspen equipment.

There have been several statements made in the last day or two on Mooneyspace that incorrectly present Aspen's practices on this subject.  Rather than debate hypothetical situations with folks who have no intention of installing used Aspen equipment, I personally invite anyone who is having trouble with our organization on this issue to reach out to me, and I will help. 

With that, all I can say is it is a beautiful day here, so I am on my way out to enjoy it.

[Shadrach]

Peter, your participation is very much appreciated. I am glad you have cleared this up and offered support to those that have had trouble in the past.

I am sorry if you fealt that I was misrepresenting Aspen's policies on the subject.  I think it was the sentence below that generated some of the comments... Which is to say that it is possible that one could have all of their ducks in a row in terms of an 8130 tagged unit and a dealer to install and still be denied STC, not that they would, but they could. That uncertainty makes some folkes uncomfortable.

Quote: peter

  Again, the permission statement is an FAA requirement.  If one of our dealers made a request to install used equipment, we would consider it.

[N601RX]

Looks like the auction has been stopped by the seller.  Anyone know the scoop?

[Shadrach]

I suspect that he may have gotten tipped off that the Louisville FSDO was going to pay him a visit.

[richardheitzman]

To help Peter out. AmSafe installes the seatbelt airbag system by STC. We have a AML STC that the FAA has accepted that tells the FAA what we think which aircraft our product will fit. It is very long. We have about 180 STC's that cover the specific aircraft. When we sell a kit to an authorized AmSafe service center they must register the aircraft on our website to get the authorization letter to install that system into that specific aircraft. This is not transfereable. As Peter mentioned, we hold all documentation, certification, and liability. No unauthorized service centers are allowed to install our systems.

And as Peter and Aspen are known for, as well as AmSafe, we try to provide outstanding customer service and do our best to take care of everyone's specific aircraft needs.

For many years I have been an avionics mechanic and in the recent years the companies that I have delt with are more and more restricting thier data. They are also providing training, certification, and keep up with thier service centers. So what I am saying is, if you buy Aspen products you are going to get great product, with fine customer service at an Authorized service center. This keeps the equipment, installation and your satisfation top notch.

[PTK]

Quote: fantom

Bada Bing....Bada Bang!

Hey Paulie, let's start selling junk with an N# on it. Big profits and it's ain't even a crime, just like selling unneeded dental procedures to the dumb, ignorant, public. It's New Jersey, ain't it?