Checklist overload

[RobertGary1]

An interesting article about checklist overload...

https://airfactsjournal.com/2011/11/is-your-checklist-really-necessary/

Over the years flying in various operations I've noticed that GA checklists are getting longer and longer. Its interesting that they are generally now longer than part 121 checklists. 

One  difference I've seen is that GA checklists often include checking things manually that are already alerted (i.e. WAAS reception, dual GPS signals) while larger aircraft checklists just check for annunciators active.

Have you considered shortening your checklist to critical items? Do you worry that by including too many unnecessary things important things like gear may be more likely to be skipped?

 

-Robert

[Mjknick@gmail.com]

Attorneys are in the cockpit anymore it’s a pain in the ass


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[gsxrpilot]

No attorney in my cockpit... no checklist either ;-)

Flows... 

[David Lloyd]

I've got more to check now than 40 years ago, and need more reminders.  Seriously, my landing checklist is very short: Fuel selector, fuel pump on, mixture, prop. Flaps and trim take care of themselves.  Takeoff is where I want the important list to keep me out of the trees.  I have another checklist for departing on an IFR flight that adds autopilot stuff:  heading bug, initial altitude,  flight plan entered in the navigator, and the transponder code entry buttons showing on the EFIS. Things that are needed.  I have seen Cherokee 140s at the runway for 20 minutes going over a checklist.

[skydvrboy]

7 minutes ago, David Lloyd said:

my landing checklist is very short: Fuel selector, fuel pump on, mixture, prop. Flaps and trim take care of themselves. 

Landing gear isn't part of your landing checklist?  Yikes! 

[N201MKTurbo]

I just use the ones on the panel. They cover everything important.

[Mooneymite]

My all purpose checklist:

1.  Landng Gear.......Down.

(Everything else is a detail.)

[David Lloyd]

28 minutes ago, skydvrboy said:

Landing gear isn't part of your landing checklist?  Yikes! 

Right now my gear is welded in place.  But, after the Mooney I did 5500 hours in a F33A. Gear always came down at pattern entry or 1000 AGL on an instrument approach.  Approaching either my hand went to the gear knob and would not come off until I said out loud, 3 in the green.

[Marauder]

An interesting article about checklist overload...
https://airfactsjournal.com/2011/11/is-your-checklist-really-necessary/
Over the years flying in various operations I've noticed that GA checklists are getting longer and longer. Its interesting that they are generally now longer than part 121 checklists. 
One  difference I've seen is that GA checklists often include checking things manually that are already alerted (i.e. WAAS reception, dual GPS signals) while larger aircraft checklists just check for annunciators active.
Have you considered shortening your checklist to critical items? Do you worry that by including too many unnecessary things important things like gear may be more likely to be skipped?
 
-Robert

I think this phenomenon is due to a couple of things. The first being the addition or changes made in the avionics in a plane. People have felt compelled to add more checklist items to address some of these. Like RAIM check, etc.

The second reason I think involves people moving from a true checklist to a to do list. My checklists are set up to match the flow I use during the process and the checklist is the verification of those “killer” items.

One thing I believe has helped with checklist adherence has been the electronic checklists. When I was using paper checklists exclusively, I would get distracted on a task and then forget where I left off because I wasn’t smart enough to keep my finger on the item I left off at. The electronic one allows you to stop and start pretty nicely.



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[N201MKTurbo]

That bitchy traffic lady (my airplane wife) in my Avidyne, always says "500 Feet" when I'm landing. I tell her to shut up then double check that my gear is down.

[RobertGary1]

56 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

That bitchy traffic lady (my airplane wife) in my Avidyne, always says "500 Feet" when I'm landing. I tell her to shut up then double check that my gear is down.

I have the EI AV-17 system that has a "ack" switch. Something about pushing a button and the gal stops talking is oddly satisfying.

-Robert

[ArtVandelay]

I have my own checklist which I modify as necessary.
For example, the first item on my hot start checklist is “fuel receipt...check”, because I have forgotten to take it.

[EricJ]

15 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

I have the EI AV-17 system that has a "ack" switch. Something about pushing a button and the gal stops talking is oddly satisfying.

-Robert

Usually on rollout she starts complaining about my gyro, and I know she's not gonna shut up at taxi rpm, so that's when the switch goes to OFF.  

 

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

That bitchy traffic lady (my airplane wife) in my Avidyne, always says "500 Feet" when I'm landing. I tell her to shut up then double check that my gear is down.

Yup.   Finally got the 500 foot callout working on mine, and it's really handy for that.    Now I need to figure out why it keeps complaining about the terrain around DVT and nowhere else.

Meanwhile, my CFII decided my checklists (which were slight modifications of the POH lists to accommodate added and deleted equipment) were inadequate and so made a new set that I have to use now (well, until after the checkride, anyway).   His lists have some specific improvements, like turning the ELT OFF on the pre-start checklist and then never turning it back on. 

I used to just use my POH-ish pre-start list and then CIFFTTRS at runup, but I may eventually do some actual improvements, mostly to accommodate new equipment, e.g., flight plan programmed, etc.   I think minimizing the checklists, both in length and quantity, is a good thing.

[midlifeflyer]

2 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

An interesting article about checklist overload...

https://airfactsjournal.com/2011/11/is-your-checklist-really-necessary/

Over the years flying in various operations I've noticed that GA checklists are getting longer and longer. Its interesting that they are generally now longer than part 121 checklists. 

One  difference I've seen is that GA checklists often include checking things manually that are already alerted (i.e. WAAS reception, dual GPS signals) while larger aircraft checklists just check for annunciators active.

Have you considered shortening your checklist to critical items? Do you worry that by including too many unnecessary things important things like gear may be more likely to be skipped?

 

-Robert

I considered it and did it.  Years ago, although I have done a number of revisions since then - always making normal operations a bit shorter and the checklist easier to read quickly.  

In terms of the worry, it's not so much I worry about an over extensive checklist leading to items being skipped. I worry about an over extensive checklist not being used because it is a PITA. Got into a discussion with another instructor once. "Why don't pilots use checklists?" My answer was, "Because most checklists suck." The reason the suck is, too much crap.

[MB65E]

That’s probably because 121 world has learned a few things. Why is it that you never here of airliners gearing up? Crap still happens, but the stupid GA stuff is way less. Most line up or before take off checks are less than 5 items. The rest is done It’s done on the ramp parked in the chocks  

Gulfstream I believe has removed all memory items from their latest aircraft.

Make it match your flows for instance. Make it clear and concise. All of the store bought checklist are way too long. 

There is some helpful guidance out there that will help develop checklists. I’ll try to find. 

When in doubt I’ve always backed up my processes with CIGAR. GUMP,  4 C’s. It works in almost any GA airplane. 

Controls, Instruments, gas/fuel, Attitude, Run up.

GUMP= gas, undercarriage mixture props.

Most airplanes I use... G,M,P, G. Less of an acronym but flows better....”Gas is on, mixture rich, prop is forward, Gear is down.”

CCCC= Controls, Cowl flaps, Caps, Canopy. 

Most of the guidance now is set up to have a format that follows- before start, afterstart, taxi, before take off, aftertakeoff, climb, Cruise, approach, landing, after landing. Make your own, keep it simple!

I was a firm believer in no checklists in light airplanes until I found myself missing items I should have remembered. 

-Matt

[Mooney in Oz]

16 hours ago, Marauder said:

My checklists are set up to match the flow I use during the process and the checklist is the verification of those “killer” items.

An excellent summation on the proper use of checklists and the way most airlines operate.  

I also use the KISS principle; Keep It Simple Stupid and add any 'gotcha' items that have caught me out in the past.

Checklists don't have to be long and onerous.  All that achieves is a high risk of missing an important item.

Common sense!

[midlifeflyer]

I was looking for this to post it. Finally found it. It's the Normal Ops checklist for an Airbus 320 posted by someone in a checklist thread in another forum as an example of simplicity. Makes some Cessna 172 checklists look like a novel. One thing I noticed was that, in favor of operational simplicity, it leaves out things or groups several items into one. For one example there is no "Start" checklist. For another, the very first item "cockpit prep" could be an entire checklist unto itself. There probably is, but it is kept separate to make the "main" Normal ops checklist easier to use. 

I incorporated some of the same concept into mine; modified others to fit my preferences.

[RobertGary1]

Also notice there us no checklist for simple things like starting and shutting down the engine. Makes sense if you’re starting the same engines 3 times a day. Airline pilots rarely fly multiple types. 

Maybe some of the checklist bloat comes from flight schools where pilots and instructors are flying different planes with different priming / starting etc procedures. Pilots carry that forward from their fbo experience. Or perhaps more than the need to remember how to start the engine it’s the fbo’s policy on how they’d like it done by their number different pilots. 

Personally I fly a lot of different planes regularly and I could figure how to start any of them with out an engine start checklist  

Although another aspec if this is that older ga planes don’t have good annunicators  Some of the shortening of checklists may rely on the fact that you don’t need to check things that are going to put red lights in your face anyway

-Robert

[midlifeflyer]

5 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

Also notice there us no checklist for simple things like starting and shutting down the engine. Makes sense if you’re starting the same engines 3 times a day. Airline pilots rarely fly multiple types. 

Maybe some of the checklist bloat comes from flight schools where pilots and instructors are flying different planes with different priming / starting etc procedures. Pilots carry that forward from their fbo experience. Or perhaps more than the need to remember how to start the engine it’s the fbo’s policy on how they’d like it done by their number different pilots. 

Agree with both points. In my case, I fly multiple types and there is enough variation in starting procedures, especially in fuel injected engines, to make a start checklist worthwhile to me, although I try to keep it short by focusing on those few differences.

 Same for V-speeds - in the Airbus example, they are going to be wildly different based on the weight envelope and are both calculated and briefed for the specific flight.

[jetdriven]

Do the Flow then back up critical items with a checklist.

I’ve seen pilot with a starting engine checklist. Reading each item. Fuel pump on. Throttle full. Mixture rich. Fuel flow. ICO. Pump off. Key-turn. Lightoff- mixture rich. (Engine racing at 1700 RPM with no oil pressure...still reading.... airplane is creeping forward ).  Oil presssure , radios  on.  RPM 1200.........

Just start the airplane. Check oil pressure and RPM, then go. Airlines and 135 operators do this. It’s fast. Accurate. Efficient. And safer. 

Its a CHECK list  not a DO list. It’s a different philosophy and not often taught by pt91 instructors. Do the procedure, check it with the list.  If you’re not familiar enough with the procedure, practice until you are.  We don’t have a checklist for a turn..aileron-apply in direction of turn....rudder- apply half as much same direction....elevator-hold altitude....power-add to maintain airspeed.  Clear the area..... of course not  this is silly, it’s pilots doing what pilots do, fly. So take this a step further and apply it to your starting procedure, ifr departure radio setup, before landing...  flying gets easier  

 

The important stuff is printed on a placard on the panel. No need for a 37 page checklist. 

Edited August 11, 2018 by jetdriven

[N201MKTurbo]

17 hours ago, EricJ said:

Now I need to figure out why it keeps complaining about the terrain around DVT and nowhere else.

Maybe it’s the mountains in the traffic pattern?

[Hank]

47 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Do the Flow then back up critical items with a checklist.

I’ve seen pilot with a starting engine checklist. Reading each item. Fuel pump on. Throttle full. Mixture rich. Fuel flow. ICO. Pump off. Key-turn. Lightoff- mixture rich. (Engine racing at 1700 RPM with no oil pressure...still reading.... airplane is creeping forward ).  Oil presssure , radios  on.  RPM 1200.........

Just start the airplane. Check oil pressure and RPM, then go. Airlines and 135 operators do this. It’s fast. Accurate. Efficient. And safer. 

Its a CHECK list  not a DO list. It’s a different philosophy and not often taught by pt91 instructors. Do the procedure, check it with the list.  If you’re not familiar enough with the procedure, practice until you are.  We don’t have a checklist for a turn..aileron-apply in direction of turn....rudder- apply half as much same direction....elevator-hold altitude....power-add to maintain airspeed.  Clear the area..... of course not  this is silly, it’s pilots doing what pilots do, fly. So take this a step further and apply it to your starting procedure, ifr departure radio setup, before landing...  flying gets easier  

 

The important stuff is printed on a placard on the panel. No need for a 37 page checklist. 

Yep, make it simple. Mine is 8-1/2 x 11 paper, folded in half; 4 sheets make 16 pages, including front cover and 6 pages of Performance Charts that I used to check a lot but now I have figured out. But it kept me from pulling that 40-year-old Owners Manual from the seat back pocket many, many times when I first bought the Mooney.

My checklist booklet lives on my kneeboard, folded open to the Prestart and Start on the left (under airport diagrams and blank paper), with Cruise and Landing on the right, folded open against my leg.

[NJMac]

My all purpose checklist:
1.  Landng Gear.......Down.
(Everything else is a detail.)

Hope I dont eat my words one day. However I just don't understand landing gear up. I call the gear my Mooney brakes. At 120 I drop gear and say aloud, "Mooney brakes engaged". Can't see slowing down easily without them activated.

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[Mooneymite]

12 minutes ago, NJMac said:

Hope I dont eat my words one day. However I just don't understand landing gear up. I call the gear my Mooney brakes. At 120 I drop gear and say aloud, "Mooney brakes engaged". Can't see slowing down easily without them activated.

I have several friends/acquaintances who have joined the "those that have" club.  All are excellent pilots.  All are competent and careful.  All would have told anyone that they "Always...do such and so" before each landing, so they could never forget the gear.  What chance do any of us have of "NEVER" forgetting the gear?

It happens.

 

[midlifeflyer]

16 hours ago, NJMac said:

Hope I dont eat my words one day. However I just don't understand landing gear up. I call the gear my Mooney brakes. At 120 I drop gear and say aloud, "Mooney brakes engaged". Can't see slowing down easily without them activated.

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Rod Machado once made the comment that there is only one difference between dialing in the wrong frequency on a handoff and a gear up landing - the consequences.

Edited August 12, 2018 by midlifeflyer