IFR Setup

[1964-M20E]

6 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

 Windows XP!  Ancient history!

Well if you really want ancient history I have an Apple IIe.  Was showing my 6 year old grand son about Apple-soft basic programming.

[jaylw314]

Just now, 1964-M20E said:

Well if you really want ancient history I have an Apple IIe.  Was showing my 6 year old grand son about Apple-soft basic programming.

No way! 

[1964-M20E]

4 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

No way! 

Yes and it works.  Using an old LCD television for the monitor.

 

And now that this thread has officially deviated form its original intent

[EricJ]

3 minutes ago, 1964-M20E said:

Well if you really want ancient history I have an Apple IIe.  Was showing my 6 year old grand son about Apple-soft basic programming.

Nice!   I miss the days when computers came with BASIC interpreters so it was easy to show people how to get started with programming, and easy to practice and experiment.

I still have the Amiga 1000 that I did my graduate thesis work with.  I think I've finally come to the point where I'd like to find another home for it and get the space back, but that might be a difficult search.

 

[Marauder]

1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

 Windows XP!  Ancient history!

I still have a Windows 2000 machine to run the old Jepp flight simulator. At least we aren't rubbing sticks together to make fire.

[steingar]

I was in the same boat as the OP, and I second the KLN94.  My motivation was a bit different, I'd been flying behind a KLX135A for well over a decade, and the interface is similar between the two.  Still, my thinking was for an extra AMU I get a much better unit.  Set against the install cost the step up isn't all that terribly much.  If the OP is going to do the install himself (the abilities of some of you people!) then my latter point is moot.

My thinking is the KLN94 was a bit more expensive, but it is color, and it is very easy to put the data in.  And  yes, you can put it in when you want to fly IFR, and if you don't you can leave it out.  What I really wanted was a Garmin 430 (actually, what I REALLY want is something brand new, but that kind of money I don't have) but the 430 was many many AMU's more than the KLN94.  The biggest advantage to the 430 (other than the comm radio) was that it could be converted to WAAS, allowing many more approaches.  I figured I'd just go with the non  precision and find an ILS if things were that bad.  I doubt I'd fly if they were though, this is after all just a hobby (though it feels like an avocation).

[ArtVandelay]

If looking at absolute cost of an avionics upgrade it will scare you.

But figure you’ll get 25-50% back when you sell the plane.

if you spend $40,000 but log 2,000 hours, get 50% back...that’s only $10/hr. It doesn’t seem as expensive does it? 

[kortopates]

I just can't imagine paying the likely 40 hrs install cost for an old KLN that adds virtually nothing in resale value to the airframe. Whereas an old but still modern GNS430 adds value and capability for just a little more and at near the same install cost.

Then you'll have a install that is upgradable; either to WAAS if you want to start real cheap or to a current Avidyne unit.

 

Of course actual install cost will depend on what you have to interface with, how much moving around you might do and if you need a GPS compatible CDI etc.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[carusoam]

I have the KLN90B...

Enjoyed loading databases through a cable to the back of the unit...

Spoke at length with the people at BK wingman services to get it to work.  My cable broke down... the procedure to dump the old database before loading the new one caused some heartache...

Their system is updated so it is possible to download databases from the web.  a small common computer device bridges the gap so it isn’t necessary to have a 1994 computer to keep it running... 

 

What you want is two precision methods to get down through the low clouds....

• ILS is a good one...
• WAAS GPS is also a good one...

Wide spread low clouds can leave you stranded when these things fail...

If there is still some budget left... Get a GPSS device to integrate all of this together...

Best regards,

-a-

[Skates97]

3 hours ago, kortopates said:

I just can't imagine paying the likely 40 hrs install cost for an old KLN that adds virtually nothing in resale value to the airframe. Whereas an old but still modern GNS430 adds value and capability for just a little more and at near the same install cost.

Then you'll have a install that is upgradable; either to WAAS if you want to start real cheap or to a current Avidyne unit.

Of course actual install cost will depend on what you have to interface with, how much moving around you might do and if you need a GPS compatible CDI etc.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I appreciate the advice, but the upgrades that I have done and will do have nothing to do with increasing the resale value, they are only to benefit me and the type of flying I am doing. If I was just planning to have this pane temporarily I would change that thinking and actually probably do very little in the form of upgrades. As I am just 4 years from the last kid leaving home and my wife and I just want the plane to make regular 3-500nm trips, this one is perfect for that mission. I imagine I will be flying it until I can't fly anymore.

A GNS430 for just a little more? The ones I see are all north of $4k while I can get the KLN90B for about 15% of that. It would add enroute and non-precision GPS approaches to the planes capability which currently just has VOR/ILS capability. If I do go this route, taking into account helping my avionics guy I can have the whole thing installed for less than the price of the GNS430. The money saved on that can go to dual G5's and a digital autopilot when they become available for our planes, which while don't add WAAS or GPSS they are helpful for keeping the plane right side up.

I'm still not settled on which direction I'm going but just trying to look at and consider all the options.

[MIm20c]

18 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

A GNS430 for just a little more? The ones I see are all north of $4k while I can get the KLN90B for about 15% of that. It would add enroute and non-precision GPS approaches to the planes capability which currently just has VOR/ILS capability. If I do go this route, taking into account helping my avionics guy I can have the whole thing installed for less than the price of the GNS430. The money saved on that can go to dual G5's and a digital autopilot when they become available for our planes, which while don't add WAAS or GPSS they are helpful for keeping the plane right side up.

I understand what you are trying to accomplish. However, I don’t understand the economics of spending 15-20k on G5’s and a digital AP if you don’t have an ideal head unit to drive them (400w and above). The idea of gpss and a new gen AP is to be able to touch the navigator about the same number of time you stroke the J bar. The absolutely amazing thing is all the “work” the waas gps / AP is doing in the background. 

If you want to keep the plane exactly like it is and only add the 90b, great!  If you want to continue to improve the panel start with something useful (again IMO). 

You need to ask yourself if you want to fly the system on a regular basis or just have the ability to push through a layer a few times a year...

[Cris]

One small point that might enter into the equation is ADSB out. I did not see if the OP has addressed that issue. With that said the suggestion of a 400W might make sense for the ADSB position requirements. Alternatively a  transponder based solution with Wass GPS or maybe another less expensive alternative would negate that need. 

In my own case that WASS position/ADSB is what drove me to the GTN625.

Edited July 18, 2018 by Cris
Added wass info

[steingar]

When I was looking I couldn't touch a 430 for less than 6 AMUs.  And that was without WAAS. Might be different now, might not.  Everyone wants a 430.

[Marauder]

I appreciate the advice, but the upgrades that I have done and will do have nothing to do with increasing the resale value, they are only to benefit me and the type of flying I am doing. If I was just planning to have this pane temporarily I would change that thinking and actually probably do very little in the form of upgrades. As I am just 4 years from the last kid leaving home and my wife and I just want the plane to make regular 3-500nm trips, this one is perfect for that mission. I imagine I will be flying it until I can't fly anymore.
A GNS430 for just a little more? The ones I see are all north of $4k while I can get the KLN90B for about 15% of that. It would add enroute and non-precision GPS approaches to the planes capability which currently just has VOR/ILS capability. If I do go this route, taking into account helping my avionics guy I can have the whole thing installed for less than the price of the GNS430. The money saved on that can go to dual G5's and a digital autopilot when they become available for our planes, which while don't add WAAS or GPSS they are helpful for keeping the plane right side up.
I'm still not settled on which direction I'm going but just trying to look at and consider all the options.

Take it from someone who has been down the avionics path a few times.

It sounds like you made the most important decision — you plan on keeping the plane. That should change your mental dynamic about what you are going to put into it.

Everything I have put into my “forever” plane has been new with the exception of the WX-500. I made the decision to buy the WX-500 used since Aerodon sold me a late model WX-500 with a new antenna and a fresh 8130 on it from L-3. It is also the current production model.

Everything else in the way of avionics, including the nuts, bolts and wires are new. Why? Because used and new avionics are expensive. And if you are going to spend some significant installation cost on putting something in your panel, why would you put a 20+ year product in your panel? It opens up potential increased repair issues, support questions and compatibility with newer stuff you install.

If it is a budget issue, I would hold off until I could afford a newer product.


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[EricJ]

11 hours ago, Skates97 said:

A GNS430 for just a little more? The ones I see are all north of $4k while I can get the KLN90B for about 15% of that. 

 

1 hour ago, steingar said:

When I was looking I couldn't touch a 430 for less than 6 AMUs.  And that was without WAAS. Might be different now, might not.  Everyone wants a 430.

Prices seem to be coming down, so it's definitely worth looking.   A buddy has been watching GNS530w prices and has been observing some precipitous drops.  I think people have figured out that paying $11k for a ten-year-old 530 makes no sense when you can by a brand new full-featured IDF540 for $15k.   It looks like 530 prices are starting to get cut in about half, so it may be worth keeping an eye on.

[steingar]

I kinda blew it on this train.  I bought a nice KLN94 off this site a couple years ago when I first got my Mooney.  I then encountered a financial shitstorm, and has to deal the installation.  Now that I have the box installed prices come down.  Seems about par for my luck on most things.

[Skates97]

12 hours ago, MIm20c said:

I understand what you are trying to accomplish. However, I don’t understand the economics of spending 15-20k on G5’s and a digital AP if you don’t have an ideal head unit to drive them (400w and above). The idea of gpss and a new gen AP is to be able to touch the navigator about the same number of time you stroke the J bar. The absolutely amazing thing is all the “work” the waas gps / AP is doing in the background. 

If you want to keep the plane exactly like it is and only add the 90b, great!  If you want to continue to improve the panel start with something useful (again IMO). 

You need to ask yourself if you want to fly the system on a regular basis or just have the ability to push through a layer a few times a year...

Most of the IFR that I see in the future is up and down through the layer out here on the coast. As for the G5's and digital AP, even if I wasn't going to get my IR and just continue to fly VFR I would be adding these in the next couple years anyway. Overkill for VFR flight? Sure it is, but just makes it more enjoyable. (Yes, I realize I am making your argument to add the waas/gpss navigator to drive it for you...)

5 hours ago, Cris said:

One small point that might enter into the equation is ADSB out. I did not see if the OP has addressed that issue. With that said the suggestion of a 400W might make sense for the ADSB position requirements. Alternatively a  transponder based solution with Wass GPS or maybe another less expensive alternative would negate that need. 

In my own case that WASS position/ADSB is what drove me to the GTN625.

Don't have the ADSB out done yet. Waiting on some of the options that "appear" to be on the horizon.

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

Take it from someone who has been down the avionics path a few times.

It sounds like you made the most important decision — you plan on keeping the plane. That should change your mental dynamic about what you are going to put into it.

Everything I have put into my “forever” plane has been new with the exception of the WX-500. I made the decision to buy the WX-500 used since Aerodon sold me a late model WX-500 with a new antenna and a fresh 8130 on it from L-3. It is also the current production model.

Everything else in the way of avionics, including the nuts, bolts and wires are new. Why? Because used and new avionics are expensive. And if you are going to spend some significant installation cost on putting something in your panel, why would you put a 20+ year product in your panel? It opens up potential increased repair issues, support questions and compatibility with newer stuff you install.

If it is a budget issue, I would hold off until I could afford a newer product.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

Yes, plan on keeping the plane and appreciate the advice of someone who has been down this road. The money is there but more of an issue as to where I want to spend the money right now. I would rather drop the cash on acquiring a couple more rental properties to fund my retirement. If all goes according to plan I'm hoping to retire in the next 10-15 years and be free to do whatever by the ripe old age of 60. 

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

Prices seem to be coming down, so it's definitely worth looking.   A buddy has been watching GNS530w prices and has been observing some precipitous drops.  I think people have figured out that paying $11k for a ten-year-old 530 makes no sense when you can by a brand new full-featured IDF540 for $15k.   It looks like 530 prices are starting to get cut in about half, so it may be worth keeping an eye on.

This upgrade isn't something that has to happen right now. Perhaps I just wait on it for a bit and see what shakes out in the next little while on prices as other things come to market and people upgrade their panels with the latest and greatest and pull stuff out. I know that goes against @Marauder's "buy new" but the used SL-40 I put in from Aerodon looks like new and works great.

[EricJ]

2 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

This upgrade isn't something that has to happen right now. Perhaps I just wait on it for a bit and see what shakes out in the next little while on prices as other things come to market and people upgrade their panels with the latest and greatest and pull stuff out. I know that goes against @Marauder's "buy new" but the used SL-40 I put in from Aerodon looks like new and works great.

Installing a used GNS530w or 430w also gives you a potential long-term upgrade path as the IFD540/440 are owner-install slide-in replacements.   By the time you wanted to upgrade you could probably get one of those used as well.

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, Skates97 said:

This upgrade isn't something that has to happen right now. Perhaps I just wait on it for a bit and see what shakes out in the next little while on prices as other things come to market and people upgrade their panels with the latest and greatest and pull stuff out. I know that goes against @Marauder's "buy new" but the used SL-40 I put in from Aerodon looks like new and works great.

Hey how do you like the SL-40?  I was thinking of that as my 2nd Nav/Com in my RV project?

[Niko182]

2 hours ago, Skates97 said:

Most of the IFR that I see in the future is up and down through the layer out here on the coast.

I don't have too much advice on IFR as i'm currently working on mine, but I said exactly the same thing to my instructor. He responded by saying
that once you get your instrument ticket, you realize that so much more is possibly with it. It practically opens up a new world.

[Skates97]

5 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

Hey how do you like the SL-40?  I was thinking of that as my 2nd Nav/Com in my RV project?

It's only a Com, no Nav but I like it a lot, very clear sound and crisp display. If you want Nav/Com you need the SL-30.

The monitor function is great, you can listen to a 2nd frequency and if there's a transmission coming over the 1st one it automatically overrides it. It has some memory functions too to save user set frequencies and recall the last 8 active frequencies. 

[jaylw314]

3 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

It's only a Com, no Nav but I like it a lot, very clear sound and crisp display. If you want Nav/Com you need the SL-30.

The monitor function is great, you can listen to a 2nd frequency and if there's a transmission coming over the 1st one it automatically overrides it. It has some memory functions too to save user set frequencies and recall the last 8 active frequencies. 

Oops, got it backwards, thanks!  I also liked the slim form factor as well for a nice basic radio

[David Lloyd]

5 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

Hey how do you like the SL-40?  I was thinking of that as my 2nd Nav/Com in my RV project?

The SL30 or 40 is a terrific radio as Skates said.  If paired with a Dynon Skyview in your RV, you can tune displayed frequencies from the Skyview display.  Simple two wire serial connection between the two. Skyview will display both the nav and standby nav needles at the same time--like having two VOR receivers. Or an ILS and a standby VOR.  Hopefully Dynon will get approval for Mooney installs in the near future.  Couldn't find a pic showing two VOR needles, just one plus the GPS.

Edited July 19, 2018 by David Lloyd

[jaylw314]

That's nice to know, I didn't know the SL radios had a serial out connection

[Schinderhannes]

I agree with your approach, older GPS units often give you a lot of functionally for 10% of the cost of a newer system. My preference are the Apollo (Garmin) GX50 - GX60 units. The GX60s com and  15 pin d-sub are identical. Why not trade in the SL40 for a GX60? This give you the SL40 com and IFR GPS in one box. The GX60 installation would be fairly simple (less $$) if you pair it with a MD40 indicator. $1000+SL40 should buy a very nice GX60 with MD40, or if you keep the SL40 the GX50 should be less than $1000. 

I am not 100% sure, but I believe you can pair the G5 only with Garmin 4xx, 5XX, 6XX, 7XX, GNC255, and SL30. If you want to use the G5 as HSI a Garmin 400 might be your best low cost avenue.