When do you put the gear down?

[chrixxer]

Scenario: Flying into a busy Bravo, where GA isn't shunted to "other" runways. Tower typically instructs "maximum possible speed" on approach, but then you're carrying too much energy "over the fence," and won't be able to get down to Vle (120 mph) or land without floating. (Not like an Arrow, where you can just chop and drop, and have a Vle just below cruise...)

 

My usual practice is to drop to 19.5/1950 a couple of miles before the IAF, which gets me down to Vle in time to dump gear and 50% flaps for a nice stabilized ~500 fpm descent, but that means the whole approach is flown at about 100 mph.

 

The alternative is to pitch it over "clean" at 19.5/1950 and hit 500 fpm at roughly cruise speed, but then you've got to get down to Vle at some point ... and "maximum possible" speed would be leaving at cruise settings and tickling Vno the whole way down, but talk about having way too much energy to bleed off before the touchdown point!

 

 

 

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[Boilermonkey]

First...as PIC do whatever you feel is safe....what works for others may not work for you or the conditions.

If it were IMC down to 1000 ft AGL or anything above a low crosswind, I would slow it down prior to the FAF. If it were VFR with less than 7 kts crosswind component, I would keep her going fast and then chop power about 2nm out, level and even pull up if needed, drop gear and flaps, then complete the approach. While it is a bit weird, to me the final approach feels like a short field landing technique.

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[Boilermonkey]

Oh...and practice it somewhere where you don't have constraints. DO NOT do this for the first time something congested. You'll probably end up long, short, go around, etc. the first few times.

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[Jerry 5TJ]

4 hours ago, chrixxer said:

 

Scenario: Flying into a busy Bravo, where GA isn't shunted to "other" runways. Tower typically instructs "maximum possible speed" on approach, but then you're carrying too much energy....

The tower doesn’t instruct, they request.

If you are uncomfortable with their request, you tell them “unable,” 

[kpaul]

I agree with Jerry, 'UNALBE' is a word you should be comfortable saying when the request makes you uncomfortable.  I am willing to help out ATC, but they don't know your planes capability or your abilities.  

When ATC asks for maximum forward speed, they are not asking for you to fly Vne.  If my gear are down, I have to stay below 104 kias, so 100 is the best I will give them.

My take is if I am on an instrument approach I will not do anything different.  I will configure 1-1.5NM from the FAF or one dot below the glide slope depending on the type of approach flown.  If flying a visual (instrument procedure, not a VFR arrival) I will slow down no later than 5 nm from the field.

[midlifeflyer]

Max or best "possible speed" means your best or maximum from an operational  or safety standpoint. Whatever I am flying, I will be stabilized at my standard instrument approach speed by the time I am 1,000' AGL. 

Depending on the bird, that may require slowing during descent from the FAF. Since most of us normally slow before the FAF, it takes some practice to do it without destabilizing other important things. Not brain surgery, but similar to learning your standard approach settings and how much time and distance it takes for changes to take effect,  and practicing the transition to and through them.

i will also inform ATC what I can give them. If it's not enough, and they need to resewuence me, so be it.

To answer the specific question, my gear comes down at one of my two standard points. Approaching FAF on an IAP in Instrument conditions; at pattern altitude within 3 miles of the runway in visual conditions. Yours may be different, but I'm a strong believer that, whatever your gear deployment procedure is, it should be consistent and inviolate (except in an emergency).

Edited May 27, 2018 by midlifeflyer

[Bob - S50]

I don't know about the F, but here is what I've determined I can do in the J.

1.  I can descend about 200 feet/NM with the gear up, about 13-15"/2200RPM, and still maintain a speed slow enough to lower the gear.  Anything steeper than that and I put the gear down to make the descent.  That obviously includes everything after the FAF but usually also includes segments prior to the FAF.

2.  I normally put the gear down at or prior to the FAF and fly final between 75 and 90 knots with half or no flaps and then drop full flaps and slow to my final speed when I'm a couple hundred feet AGL.

3.  If asked to 'keep my speed up', I've determined through practice I can put the gear down and maintain 120 KIAS on final.  When I need to slow, if I go to idle and drop the flaps at about 100 KIAS, I will have descended about 400' (about 1.5 miles) by the time I'm on speed.  I'm not going to do that while I'm IMC.  However, if the ceiling is about 500' AGL or higher, I'd feel comfortable keeping my speed up and then configure and land once I have the runway in sight.  If I'm IMC, I would probably start slowing toward my normal 75-90 about 1000' AGL (about 3-4 miles) and plan on slowing to final once the runway is in sight.

We all have our own techniques though.

[Hank]

Flying an ILS with the DPE, half flaps, gear down and 105 mph (90 knots), a Lear checked in behind us and Tower instructed him to reduce speed by 50 knots. The disbelief in the pilot's voice was quite clear, but resigned when told he was #2 behind someone making 80 knot groundspeed. I asked the DPE if I should speed up a little, he said Let's see what you can do.

So still about 8nm out, gear up, flaps up and we came down the glideslope at 130-135  mph for the next several miles. I began slowing down about 3 nm out, the DPE was happy to cross the threshold on speed, on slope, gear down, half flaps; maybe the last half mile or so at 105 mph, slowing over the threshold. Never heard from Mr. Jet-in-a-Hurry behind me again . . . .

It boils down to know your plane, be well practiced and competent. If you've not been flying much recently, or have only done your 6 approaches and a hold to stay legal, don't try strange things. But I was at peak currency, peak proficiency and had someone sitting beside me who wouldn't let things go too awry. It really does make a difference. 

On approach, gear goes down a dot-and-a-half before glideslope intercept, which puts me right on the glideslope since Mooneys don't decelerate fast. When VFR, gear goes down abeam my intended point of landing, also to start the descent.

[Immelman]

I'm intentionally not answering your question about when to put the gear down. I think its time to step things up a level:

Cleared approach, speed is your discretion unless otherwise instructed.

ATC can assign speeds, just like headings or altitudes... its done all the time in turbine aircraft... but it is not as common in piston for reasons this thread makes obvious. If the speed won't work for you, comfortably and safely, "unable" is the reply.

Speed assignments typically do not exist inside the final approach fix. Think about that for a while.....  Anything you do extra is a help, but don't overdo it. The best scenario, is that the controller asks you what you can do, you reply with a comfortable speed, and deliver. Then the controller can plan the spacing accordingly for traffic following you.

 

[N201MKTurbo]

I've done 120 KTS approaches in the Mooney. I do it with my hand on the gear handle so I don't forget to put them down. At about 2 miles out I'll pull the power back to idle, then put my hand back on the gear handle. When the plane slows to gear speed, I'll put them down. When I get to flap speed I'll put them all in. When I get to normal approach speed I'll add some power. It is rarely needed unless there is a strong head wind.

[chrixxer]

On 5/27/2018 at 3:55 AM, Jerry 5TJ said:

The tower doesn’t instruct, they request.

FAR 91.123(b): “Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction” (emphasis added).

Edited May 28, 2018 by chrixxer

[chrixxer]

So yesterday was fun. Flying into LAS on a visual approach, ATC had me restricted to 5000' (~3000' AGL) until 3 miles from the field. I'd slowed to "Cessna speed" (19.5 squared) and was able to dump in gear and flaps and slip down the base leg ... Was asked (instructed, whatever) to maintain a higher speed so brought it down at 120 mph, which still gave me plenty of time to get her slowed down enough for a textbook landing at the touchdown bars on 19R. Exited Sierra. No drama. Glad I had a few dozen approaches and landings in her before I tried going into a Bravo, though!

[carusoam]

ATC is very cautious in the words they use...

they must have the same training we get, but for the other side...

Where some things can go awry...

ATC issues their request.

Pilot takes it as a command.  Then does things that are against the laws of physics...

There was a recent Cirrus accident resulting from a tight turn and stall in the airport environment...

 

If asked to maintain  faster speed... consIder Using something less than gear operating speed...

this way you can.... slow down and go down using all the braking you have....

 

pull the throttle back... to eliminate adding power

drop the gear...  (the original speed brakes) to start slowing to flap speed

Push the prop in... to maximize engine braking (similar to downshifting)

Add in the flaps and balance with trim...   (Lots of aerodynamic braking is going on)

Then there is always turning the plane sideways to the wind... a side slip is a tremendous brake...

Practice before you need it... know your operating limits/speeds...

In some Mooneys... the gear operating and gear down speed are different enough... put the gear down (at one) and lower the nose to raise IAS to the gear down limit... with speed brakes out and high air speed, energy is being dissipated at a very high rate.  The gear doors are going to be working hard.

 

For the O... my goal is gear down and flaps (T/O) and slowed to 90kias prior to entering the traffic pattern...

LBs are not allowed to slip near TPA. They all have speed brakes instead...

Any faster, you start falling behind quickly, ending up high and/or fast on final... or descending at 1kfpm a mile out... not a very stabilized approach...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI or ATC....

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

50 minutes ago, chrixxer said:

FAR 91.123(b): “Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction” (emphasis added).

Sounds good.

 But 91.123  a) “When an  ATC clearance has been obtained, no  pilot in command may deviate from that clearance unless an amended clearance is obtained....”

and I don’t think it is a clearance until you accept it.  

UNABLE starts the negotiations.  

[chrixxer]

Sounds good.
 But 91.123  a) “When an  ATC clearance has been obtained, no  pilot in command may deviate from that clearance unless an amended clearance is obtained....”
and I don’t think it is a clearance until you accept it.  
UNABLE starts the negotiations.  

Clearance is issued by TRACON. Typically it's tower that's instructing "best speed," etc, significantly later.


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[Marauder]

Clearance is issued by TRACON. Typically it's tower that's instructing "best speed," etc, significantly later.


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Are we talking about IFR approaches to an airport? If so, from my experience approach controllers typically are controlling the sequence spacing and the required speeds to make that sequencing work. By the time you are handed off to tower, usually before the FAF, the negotiations are over.


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[PTK]

On 5/27/2018 at 2:38 AM, chrixxer said:

 

Scenario: Flying into a busy Bravo, where GA isn't shunted to "other" runways. Tower typically instructs "maximum possible speed" on approach, but then you're carrying too much energy "over the fence," and won't be able to get down to Vle (120 mph) or land without floating. (Not like an Arrow, where you can just chop and drop, and have a Vle just below cruise...)

 

My usual practice is to drop to 19.5/1950 a couple of miles before the IAF, which gets me down to Vle in time to dump gear and 50% flaps for a nice stabilized ~500 fpm descent, but that means the whole approach is flown at about 100 mph.

 

The alternative is to pitch it over "clean" at 19.5/1950 and hit 500 fpm at roughly cruise speed, but then you've got to get down to Vle at some point ... and "maximum possible" speed would be leaving at cruise settings and tickling Vno the whole way down, but talk about having way too much energy to bleed off before the touchdown point!

 

 

 

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You don’t have to fly the entire approach that slow and you don’t need to come in hot over the fence either. Why not maintain a constant slope and vary your speed gradually decreasing it. For example in my J even if I start my descent at a blistering 140 KIAS and target to be at 100 by FAF, to maintain a constant slope of say 200 ft/nm I only need to vary the rate of descent a little. ~500 ft/min at the top to ~300 ft/min by the FAF. Steeper slopes increase rate of descent. You can play with your numbers for your airplane and see.

Alternatively keep speed up at a nice clip and deploy speed brakes at FAF or if VFR around 5 miles out. This brings me down to gear speed and it's gear and flaps at this point.

[gsxrpilot]

I was flying into HOU the other day to pick up an Angel Flight. It's a pretty busy Southwest airport and there were a couple of SWA jets behind me. In the K I have 140 knot gear speed. So I dropped the gear on the base leg but kept the flaps up. I flew the Final at 100 knots and rolled it on fast without any flaps. I held the nose wheel off for some aerodynamic breaking and then took the high speed exit from the runway. Easy, safe, and was they best I could do for the big birds behind me trying to stay on a schedule.

We land fast without flaps in the Caravan and other formation flights all the time. And it's certainly easy at a Bravo airport with long runways.

[BRBENNETT]

Don't let ATC affect your decision for safety and operating limitations.  When ATC gives me the same instruction, I respond with my performance limitations and tell them what they are going to get for approach speed.

[jetdriven]

You can do 175 KIAS until a 7 mile final on a straight-in in a M20J, slow down, then come down and land without abusing the airplane.  It can be done. 

[Boilermonkey]

Whatever you do...do it from experience. Try out these different techniques somewhere without pressure in VFR. As you become proficient added them to your toolkit when asked by ATC to do something. Never fly outside of your abilities.

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[kris_adams]

48 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

You can do 175 KIAS until a 7 mile final on a straight-in in a M20J, slow down, then come down and land without abusing the airplane.  It can be done. 

Hey Byron, would you mind sharing the steps you take to slowdown from 175KIAS in 7 miles?  I've heard a lot about shock cooling and damaging the engine so I'd love to hear what you do since I know your processes are always researched and thought out.  Thanks!

[L. Trotter]

10 minutes ago, Kris_Adams said:

Hey Byron, would you mind sharing the steps you take to slowdown from 175KIAS in 7 miles?  I've heard a lot about shock cooling and damaging the engine so I'd love to hear what you do since I know your processes are always researched and thought out.  Thanks!

Sorry, not Byron, but I thought I would delicately comment on the bigger picture. No judgement intended.

Shock cooling (if it's real) should never be an issue if you stay ahead of your plane and plan accordingly, utilizing proper engine management techniques. I think the same can be said about speed brake use (in most situations-an exception being staying real high until the last minute). I'm not sure you can "shock cool" an engine that is not "hot". I know I am being very simplistic, but books have been written to answer your question thoughtfully/completely. I believe a short cook-book answer would do you injustice. 

We are all interested in reading information that will help us be safer and more efficient pilots. I highly recommend some of John Deakins articles. This will answer your question, and then some. It will cost nothing but your time. I am certain you will think differently about how you manage each phase of flight.....start-up, taxi, run-up, take-off, climb, cruse and decent. You can find them in the Pelican Perch series on Av Web. To get you started:

For normally aspirated planes #63-#66  https://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182179-1.html

For the turbo folks #31-#36 https://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182102-1.html

Both cover all phases of flight and are interesting regardless of how your bird breaths.

John and a couple of his colleagues run the Advanced Pilot Seminar course. I think we can consider them as "go to people" and very knowledgeable in the engine management world. I personally have not taken their course, yet, but others who have unanimously recommend it. They have an online course as well.

[kris_adams]

Thanks for sharing.  I will definitely check them out!

 

[kris_adams]

to the OP sorry for he thread creep.  As far as putting gear down, (generally speaking):

VFR pattern: midfield downwind

Non-precision approach: FAF

Precision approach: glideslope intercept.