Virginia Accident

[Gone]

1 hour ago, Seth said:

There is a kit to add it, this is a good point for a situation just like this.  Not all situations would have the baggage door clear, but it’s a potential life saving option.

-Seth

I built one for mine at Clarence's this past summer during the annual.  Big key ring at the end of 8" of flexible wire that pulls the latch from the inside.

[Jeff H.]

CooperDog - May your lessons be quickly learned, your memory be short and your ass back in the air . . . this week.

Don't beat yourself up by overthinking this - remember only the good die young so raise a glass in thanks, start looking for your next Mooney and look forward to having you hang out with the rest of us grumpy ol' bastards here for a good long time.

 

[Rookie]

2 hours ago, Cooperd0g said:

CG was towards the rear, but within limits. 

Did you use electronic weight and balance like in Foreflight ? If you did use the paperless was FAA ok with it?

[Mooneymite]

Takeoff/landing distances are only meaningful when expressed with the other conditions.  DA and wind are critical.  I'd be interested in the DA that day.  

[Cooperd0g]

50 minutes ago, Rookie said:

Did you use electronic weight and balance like in Foreflight ? If you did use the paperless was FAA ok with it?

Yes, ForeFlight. He didn't seem to have an issue with it. 

[Tommy]

Thanks Cooper Dog for the PIREP report on this incident. Lots of take home messages.

First and foremost, grateful that you and your family were okay. I will give it to @Hank that I also believe that Mooney's structural strength had almost certainly contributed in your miraculous escape.

Though none of you were hurt physically, the emotional and psychological impact can be severe and long lasting. Your military training probably had prepared you well for this but your wife may not fare so well.

I do wonder if your military background and experience with high performance jet actually did you a disservice in this instance.

It's a bit of hindsight but your incident reminds me of one of the three most useless things in aviation: the runway behind you. Always use the full length of the runway even if it's 9000 feet long. You never know when you are going to need that last 100. When I was flying in and out of an international / military airport back in 2013, I never accepted an intersection take off. I figure that I don't have an extra engine like every one else does and I am never in that much of a hurry to go somewhere. 

Edited October 9, 2017 by Tommy

[Guest]

This has been an interesting read, as so many here are.

I wonder how the comments from everyone would differ if we were dissecting a Cirrus that used the CAPS and all survived? Would this pilot be a hero or a zero?

Clarence

 

[Tommy]

2 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

This has been an interesting read, as so many here are.

I wonder how the comments from everyone would differ if we were dissecting a Cirrus that used the CAPS and all survived? Would this pilot be a hero or a zero?

Clarence

 

Clarence, don't steal my fun of poking at the hornet's nest!!!! 

[Guest]

Equally silent are those who say a botched Touch and go will raise all of our insurance rates.  In this case the insurance company will be paying for a house as well as an airframe write off, with luckily no loss of life in the plane or the house.

Clarence

[Tommy]

5 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Equally silent are those who say a botched Touch and go will raise all of our insurance rates.  In this case the insurance company will be paying for a house as well as an airframe write off, with luckily no loss of life in the plane or the house.

Clarence

Okay, guys. I will come clean. It was me. I hacked Clarence's account...

 

 

Edited October 9, 2017 by Tommy

[carusoam]

Glad you're still with us, CD!

For a similar accident comparison, we lost Patrick and his M20J, a couple of years ago.  Short runway, intersection take off, fuel stop, three people, heavy, high DA, mushed into the trees... two survivors. (Fuzzy old memory, may be missing detail.)

Patrick's intersection only lopped off a couple hundred feet. He hadn't quite graduated from a flying college level program.

Thanks for sharing the details.  Looks like something wanted you to be able to tell your story...

We have been talking the importance of DA knowledge in memory of Patrick.

Thank you and best regards,

-a-

[DXB]

What's distinctive here is that the pilot has been unusually forthright  about a serious error that risked lives and damaged property, so it's easy to imagine he's beating himself up over it more than some strangers on the internet ever could. Also his stellar aviation background suggests that human factors more forgivable than incompetence and willful ignorance were at play.  And given his attitude, it's  hard to imagine he's more of a danger than any of us going forward. 

I hope I'd have the courage to fess up in public after doing something like this, though I'd probably wait until all the legal stuff got settled. But as a lowly 450 hr vfr private pilot, I still wouldn't receive (or deserve) the same deference.

[ArtVandelay]

This has been an interesting read, as so many here are.

I wonder how the comments from everyone would differ if we were dissecting a Cirrus that used the CAPS and all survived? Would this pilot be a hero or a zero?

Clarence

 

I don't think anyone is saying this was a save or he's a hero.

 

He was carrying his wife and 13 year old, if I knew him I would be verbally kicking his butt. I assume he is chastising himself (I hope) endlessly.

I agree the military background didn't help him (over confident, mission oriented).

 

He won the lottery and should thank god for it.

 

Whenever I read accident reports about families dying in small plane crashes, it makes sad, angry, and frustrated at the same time since they always seem to be easily avoidable with better judgment.

[Gary0747]

Although it does not apply here it is important to note that if one gets sufficiently below Vx but still above the power on stall speed that our relatively under powered airplanes will enter a regieme where they will virtually not climb at all.   We sometimes call this getting behind the power curve. So with the trees approaching on take off our gut reactions are to pull back on the yoke which if we are at Vx will only make the situation worse. I am not sure this is as big a hazard when flying a higher powered aircraft?  

[BigAl]

32 minutes ago, DXB said:

What's distinctive here is that the pilot has been unusually forthright  about a serious error that risked lives and damaged property, so it's easy to imagine he's beating himself up over it more than some strangers on the internet ever could. Also his stellar aviation background suggests that human factors more forgivable than incompetence and willful ignorance were at play.  And given his attitude, it's  hard to imagine he's more of a danger than any of us going forward. 

I hope I'd have the courage to fess up in public after doing something like this, though I'd probably wait until all the legal stuff got settled. But as a lowly 450 hr vfr private pilot, I still wouldn't receive (or deserve) the same deference.

+1

[gsxrpilot]

 

[MyNameIsNobody]

I had a bad day today and the news that you and your family survived a brutal experience does indeed bring me a massive amount of joy.  When you are at your child's graduations, opening Christmas presents, celebrating their wedding and birth of your grandchild think of that day and say a quiet thanks that the fickle hand of fate...that is the hunter...for not smiting you and your family.

I wish you all a wonderful life.  As a brilliant actor once said with his dying breath...

Earn it.

PS-search out your arch angel and reward him over and over again.  His prompt action could have also saved your family.  My suggestion would be a bottle of scotch mailed every year on the date of the incident...your new "Birthday".

When German pilots survived a close call they would get uproariously drunk to celebrate their "Birthday"...for they were granted a second life.

Happy Birthday to you and your family CooperDog.  Celebrate!

 

[flyboy0681]

Sure glad all aboard were unharmed (I seem to be saying that a lot these days).

Your situation sounds eerily the same as our fallen friend Patrick Sheridan back in 2012, also an intersection takeoff with trees at the end. He was a really good guy and well liked around here.

 https://mooneyspace.com/topic/4992-mooney-crash-in-ny-area/

[Alan Fox]

I think its sad that this thread has focused on the basic pilot skills , that I have no doubt , that the pilot possesses , and is WAY more qualified than myself , or most of the pilots on this site....  This is not about runway length , aircraft performance , weather conditions , etc  etc .....    You are focusing on things that will never help you as far as this accident is concerned ,  This is about a breakdown in the decision process , and that's where you should concern yourselves....  It happens to all of us , and we usually get away with it.......  If you want to learn anything from this accident , its about what interruption , or distraction caused a qualified (well qualified) pilot to make the wrong decision and almost lose his and his passengers lives.....   Its time to listen , not to judge....

[AlexLev]

Bravo to Cooper for sharing. I would absolutely jump in an airplane with him at any point reading his reflections.

I am so grateful you and your family are okay. I hope you continue to fly and don't hang it up because of this. I hope a Mooney owner near Virginia offers to take you up and fly ASAP.

Thanks for sharing something we could all learn from. I agree with AF the lesson isn't necessarily about the specific runway length, but more about the decision making process.

Edited October 10, 2017 by AlexLev

[Skates97]

23 minutes ago, Alan Fox said:

I think its sad that this thread has focused on the basic pilot skills , that I have no doubt , that the pilot possesses , and is WAY more qualified than myself , or most of the pilots on this site....  This is not about runway length , aircraft performance , weather conditions , etc  etc .....    You are focusing on things that will never help you as far as this accident is concerned ,  This is about a breakdown in the decision process , and that's where you should concern yourselves....  It happens to all of us , and we usually get away with it.......  If you want to learn anything from this accident , its about what interruption , or distraction caused a qualified (well qualified) pilot to make the wrong decision and almost lose his and his passengers lives.....   Its time to listen , not to judge....

Cooperd0g, thank you for sharing everything about the accident. I like many others read as much as I can about accidents because I want to learn from them and not on my own. 

The times I have made mistakes (which fortunately have not had negative consequences) has been when I was out of my routine or changed plans and moved forward without evaluating the effect of those changes. I recently landed after a flight at 2,500 RPM without pushing the prop full forward during my GUMPS check because I had allowed myself to be interrupted by a question from my passenger instead of keeping what is normally my strict sanitary cockpit policy while in the vicinity of the airport. Like others I am glad you are here to tell the tale and that you are willing to tell the tale so we can all learn from it.

[Hank]

I learned as a fairly new Mooney pilot that even if there's an FSS station on the field, and they are recommending a runway, that it's still up to me as PIC to make the selection.

Coming in to land at Elkins, WV, KEKN, the nice guy at the FSS gave me the winds and recommended a runway (there are two crossing runways, and I looked for and didn't see a windsock; the tetrahedron was badly faded, and I'd never seen one before) which I proceeded to land on. Badly. Floated, yawed right, floated more--the durn thing wouldn't set down! Finally landed in a bit of a crab.

Taxiing in, someone else departed on the crossing runway. Then I saw the tetrahedron and realized I'd landed with a tailwind, the wind the FSS gave me on the radio from across the field didn't come close to matching!

Since then, Tower has landed me with a tailwind once, but I've taken all recommendations for runway use from anyone else with a grain of salt. I have also asked for, and received, a different runway from the Tower. Their chair is safely stationary, while mine moves at least 70 mph behind some very thin aluminum (and a nice steel frame!   ).

But it's the times that everything seems OK that have proven to be the dangerous ones. When the wind is twitchy and gusty, and we're trying to land over trees, that's when we are alert, paying extra attention and ready to jump, but it's the ordinary-seeming things that will bite . . . . 

Ya'll fly safe out there, ya hear?

[donkaye]

First, thank goodness "all's well that ends well".  I also appreciate having the person who went through the ordeal explain what happened.  Having said that, if ever there was an example of the importance of having good Mooney specific transition training including all maneuvers included in the Basic Wings Program this was it--no matter the experience level of the pilot.  Here we have an ATP and CFI make incredibly inconceivable decisions and stall the airplane on takeoff.  Had he received a proper checkout with more experience flying at the edge of the envelope there is NO WAY he would have taken off at that airport with runway behind him.  It also proves why I don't do Flight Reviews any more; only Wings Programs.  The Wings Program requires the pilot to do power on stalls.  I have the student do Power on stalls at 65% power.   Do you know the attitude of the Mooney with only that power setting?  Imagine the attitude at 100% power.  It's unbelievable! Then couple that with the laminar flow wing of the Mooney.  Laminar flow wings have a much steeper "backside of the power curve" than the non laminar flow wings of other models like the Cessna 182.  That "J" was going to lose altitude at that attitude.  And to "secondary stall" the airplane requires loading the wing on the primary recovery.  Ouch!!

This was a "lack of training" accident in my opinion leading to the resultant poor decision making.  With lack of adequate training it was a case of "not knowing what you don't know" about the airplane.  The accident chain began back with the lack of a proper aircraft checkout.

This should be an eye opener for those who read this thread.  I thank the pilot for sharing what happened in detail, so that others can benefit.

[Mooneymite]

Don, your post strikes me as self-serving self aggrandizement at the expense of someone who is big enough to admit a mistake.  Perhaps there's a time and place for this sort of chest-thumping, but it seems in very poor taste here.

YMMV.

[Fly By]

Pay particular attention to the “I did not have enough control to really pick a spot at that point, but I had enough rudder to keep the nose between the trees” part.  That is his Navy training kicking in.  I preach rudder control during slow flight and stalls to my students.  Ailerons are ineffective, but the rudder works all the way to the ground.  This likely kept him from rolling over and auguring in like we see so many GA pilots do in scenarios like this.