Paint shops in florida

[Saltaire]

Ok Mr. LT4BIRD or should I call you “Mr. - I paint on the side”

 

There are certain sunk costs, overhead costs and labor costs you don’t have to pay for when you “paint on the side”.

 

But, let’s forget that stuff for now; let’s talk experience and credentials first;

 

1. 
   
2. I have been in aviation for 39 years, yeah I’ve been around
   
3. I hold an AS in Aircraft Maintenance, a BS in Aircraft Maintenance Engineering and an MBA
   
4. I am a licensed pilot and A & P
   
5. I was the manager of production engineering responsible for IE, Tooling, Plant Layout and planning for Mooney Aircraft between 1980 and 1985 (the Roy Lopresti Years)
   
6. And, don’t think I’m drawing some big pay from Saltaire. I draw nothing, I am a co-owner. I work for a major aerospace company as a advanced composite structures manager working on programs such as the F-22 and F-35
   
7. My partner Scott has been in aviation for 30 years and manages the day to day operation for Saltaire
   
8. He has a BS in Aircraft Maintenance Management
   
9. He holds an A & P license and he is a former USAF C-130 Crew Chief
   
10. Our company was established in 1994 and in that time we’ve stripped and painted almost 1000 aircraft.
    
11. Not only have we done a lot of Mooneys but Pipers, Beechs, Cessnas, Aero Commanders, Grummans, OV-10 Broncos, etc, etc, etc
    
12. Our customers have ranged from individual owners to several Florida Sheriff Departments, the Florida Highway Patrol, the US Department of State, the Florida Department of Agriculture and the Florida Department of Forestry
    

 

In the end 201-FLYER, Nick C’s testimonial says it all;

 

“When I bought my plane the fact that you all painted it was a MAJOR decision in my purchasing of it believe it or not.”

 

The caps on major are his, not mine.

 

So now Mr. - I paint on the side; I have some questions for you;

 

1.      Do you carry hangar keepers insurance for liability?

2.      Do you paint in a pressurized paint booth hangar?

3.      Do you remove all the surfaces, flaps, cowl, spinner, gear doors and access panels and paint them separately?

4.      Do you use a biodegradable stripping chemical?

5.      Do you control and capture all your hazardous materials and ship them for proper disposal?

6.      Do you check control surface balance after paint? (Mooney’s are known to have a small balance window and if you're outside of it, out of balance can induce control surface flutter)

 

This has nothing to do with Picasso or Grey Poupon and everything to do with airworthiness!!

 

Just because it’s pretty and shiny on the outside does not, in any way mean, you received a quality, maintenance intense, job!

[LT4BIRD]

Not that your anyone to question me. Yes

1. I have insurance

2. A&P

3. Filtered paint booth 

4. Boidergadable strip

5. Walnut strip

6. Jetglo or Alumigrip

7. 30 day turnaround

8. 2 year free touch up!

9. Of course remove panels and controll surfaces.

10. 8-10 Grand all day long.

I dont work on F-35s. I work on mooneys. I own one. I work as Director of maintenance full time and paint on the side. I actually mix and spray the paint. I bet you couldn't tell me even how to mix. How could you? Your at a desk.  I work on GA all day. I overhaul engines on a regular basis. I fly 400hr plus a year. You own part of a paint business.

I dont sit a my goverment contracted job spitting spam and declining rides from people that dont own a Turbo Type -S. I work with the FAA on a weekley basis. I can tell you about airworthyness.

So I guess that makes me the Expert at what I do. And I hope not to offend you not recommending your Paint Facility to my customers................

Sincerely,  Mr I paint on the side 

 

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: Saltaire

Ok Mr. LT4BIRD or should I call you “Mr. - I paint on the side”

 

 

I'd call myself "Mr. CFI on the side".  My full time job is aviation insurance (mostly commercial risks, but also pleasure and business aircraft).  Just because I flight instruct on the side doesn't make my work any less professional.  I teach my students to get full utility out of their airplanes and fly to PTS.  I hope that wouldn't make you fear flying with them, just because I do it on the side.

I don't disagree with your pricing philosophy, but just because someone does it as a sidejob at a less expensive rate doesn't make them any less professional.

[sleepingsquirrel]

My favorite picture M20B vs TLS ,similar paint jobs until within 6 feet. I know that quality work nearing perfection cost more and there is a market for a $20,000 paint job. Blunt nose Mooney with NO modifications vs TLS Mooney, the best money can buy.

 I was joking with the TLS owner that I could easily mistakenly fly out in his airplane since they were painted so similarly. That is until he reminded me that his was burning 20 gph. If mine was in the foreground it would look bigger than the TLS and it would still burn 10 gph. I was happy to fly out in my fuel sipping bird with trade school paint . Wouldn't meet  quality control for any commercial paint shop but airworthy none the less.

 

 

[thinwing]

hi all...this thread on  painting aircraft is so topical....It shows just how badly aircraft owners can be ripped off unless they really do their own do diligence.......4000 bucks additional for the 4 strips of 3/4 in 3m fineline tape that defines the "tls" paint job.I really have to say to everyone on this forum including Mr Saltaire....if you look at the photo of N40zm you see the classic "tls" paint job, you can clearly see the gold "laser" stripes seperating the marroon on white.Does anyone with half their brain cells intact believe 4000 bucks is a reasonable additional cost to paint those stripes!Aparently Mr Saltair and his partners think so!!!Anyway....this is simply a situation where it is best to thank him for his quote and move on!!!..kp couch

[Saltaire]

I am truly amazed at the hostile responses from folks on this forum regarding aircraft painting. I came on this forum to enlighten folks on what it takes in hours, materials, overhead, sunk-cost to properly refinish (strip and paint) aircraft and maintain a high standard of airworthiness.

 

What is amazing to me is no one has attacked my data. No one questioned my cost of materials, my labor rate, and the hours it takes to perform a first class job. Not one made a comment like,” it takes 250 hours to strip and paint a Mooney, really??” Or, how is your labor rate with burden $32/hr considering that when I get my annual, my FBO charges $60 or more?

 

The reason I am open to telling folks what the real costs are is simple. An educated customer who has a solid idea what it takes and what activities go into it can ask better questions when looking for a shop to do this type of work.

 

To the criticism above, I pretty much spelled it out; there is 80 hours worth of additional work in a TLS scheme. Yes there are (4) .75 stripes on the fuselage and wing root, and the wing tip, and the vertical tip. There is also a second color applied to all those locations and approximately $900 of additional materials.

 

As you can see I don’t have a problem telling anyone here what it takes. When we do government work we have to so we’re accustomed to it.

 

To the insults all I have to say is this; our work has been displayed in the Beech owners magazine (front cover, Baron), the Piper Owners magazine (Twin Comanche), front cover with article in Kitplanes magazine (Velocity) and a first place award for a customers Cessna 180 at Oshkosh (2) years ago. Our work speaks for itself.

 

One last comment for all to think about, I attended the helicopter trade show in Orlando yesterday and spoke briefly with a competitor. He had a Lear 65 photo displayed in his booth so I asked him how much he charged to S&P a Lear 65. His answer; $60K. I figure there is probably 5 equivalent Mooney’s worth of painted area on that airplane. Simple math tells me a Mooney is a $12K job.

 

 

 

 

[Parker_Woodruff]

The point was not to attack your data.

If I was running a paint shop, my best guess with limited knowledge is I would probably charge more than $8k, but less than $17k for an M20.  Regardless, it's not like the guy said he can paint one for $3K out the door - your assumptions about the aircraft not being fit to fly in are not warranted.

I'd ask why your high sticker price automatically makes you more professional at what you do and automatically makes someone else's paint job unairworthy...I really don't care about your pricing philosophy.  It's the free market. (or what's left of it)

[Saltaire]

Parker,

 

A few points:

1. 
   
2. When someone tells me they “do something on the side” that infers it is not their primary specialty. We concentrate on one thing and we do it very well.
   
3. My skipping the ride comment was simply this, if you did the job for $8K then I am of the opinion you cut some corners. I sincerely believe that, especially if the paint job was done on a Mooney.
   
4. Everyone has stated this job as a $17K job and as high as $20. The quoted job was $12K plus TLS scheme for an additional $4K. That’s $16K. I can’t do anything about Florida sales tax and environmental disposal costs. We state those on the estimate separately so when you receive an estimate from us it is an “out the door” price, no surprises when you come to pick it up.
   
5. Finally, in our business it is a free market. Aircraft paint shops are not regulated beyond local fire codes, occupational licenses, etc. How a shop paints your airplane is strictly up to that shop and their philosophy on quality and integrity.
   

 

JimR

 

We don’t sell many TLS schemes anymore because they are not as up-to-date as some of the newer schemes. It has been probably a couple of years.

 

If your plane was painted in 1987 and hangar kept you have done the best thing for the finish you can do, kept it out of the sun!  In 1987 a lot of shops were using Dupont Imron which has proven over time to be very durable. Wash with mild detergent and wax it when you have a couple of days. Keep an eye out for corrosion and use that as your yardstick to repaint. Or, repaint when you’ve grown tired of the way it looks.

[MooneyMitch]

Hi Jim.

To me, your plane looks just terrific.  I've admired it from day one of my MooneySpace experience.  Maybe cause it's RED.  Regardless, the scheme and colors are appealing and I know you take great care of your Mooney.

The paint on my Mooney was original and was in very good condition.  I had this picture in my mind of exactly how I wanted it to look though, so I had it painted in the colors and scheme that pleased me.  I wanted to open the hangar door each time and sing to it, "You Are So Beautiful"!  Now i do that.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder of course, so to each his/her own I say.  For me, this is my dream Mooney and the paint made it so. 

$8,800 for my stellar paint from ArtCraft in SMX two years ago and all is perfect!  

p.s. Metallic red and metallic silver are the accent colors over Matterhorn white............WOWIE!!  ArtCraft will be at AirVenture again this year!

[Parker_Woodruff]

JimR,

Where are you in FL?

[thinwing]

You guys with your Red Mooneys...I am so jealous...My first car,..a red nova convertible....the car I love now...A red porsche convertible...next wad of dough that suddenly drops out of the sky is going to be for a repaint!!!!..sinc kp couch

[thinwing]

G                            csus2                                           C                                                                                                           You are sooooooooo Mooneyful    to  meee......        You  are SOOOOOOO Mooneyful to me........        Can't  you seeeeeeee......eeeee ( DM)   You're everything I've hoped for  (B7)......(EM)You're everything I Neeeeeeeeeeeeeed!!!...with apologies to Joe Cocker

[garylayne]

Well, this thread certainly has been educational as well as entertaining - of course the latter is directed to the song .  Now that is stuck in my head

[MooneyMitch]

Ab's a better key for me!!!

[Vref]

...in europe you would add 21% VAT on all this quotes so you would need a soprano singer and not Joe Cocker..;-)...

 

[carusoam]

Mitch and JimR,

Thanks for the reminders....Artcraft did have a very professional thread about painting...

Fired up the Mooney and the Corvette this weekend....(no red, both blue....)

If you are going to paint your plane, do it now before Vref's VAT is extended to the US.......to cover the budget shortfall?

Does anyone have any pictures of the mid 90's Moonies with the Texas Flag motif?

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: JimR

Jim

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: JimR

Hey, that would be great, Parker.  I just made a note in my calendar on 03/25 that you'll be passing through.  I'm scheduled to be in town, so if you have time swing by and we'll grab a beer and talk Mooneys.

Jim

[fantom]

If that doesn't work, guys,  when you're in Ft. Lauderdale Parker, perhaps we can coerce Jim into flying down, and we can fly up to join up with him midway.

Although, I'm not certain that a J with bladders has that much range ;-)

[thinwing]

Vref,tenor voice indeed!!!...more like sqeaky Tiny Tim voice!!!21 % vat on top of state and local....lets see...new song sang in the key a/b "Tip Tow through the Tulips...through the Tulips where my Moooooo neeeeeee used to be.

[Mcstealth]

Quote: carusoam

Does anyone have any pictures of the mid 90's Moonies with the Texas Flag motif?

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: Mcstealth

 There is one of these on our Field. It is very cool looking. Distinct but not gaudy. I really like it.

Lets see if I can get a picture.

[fantom]

I believe the factory only did two of them, and one has been repainted.

[carusoam]

"I believe the factory only did two of them, and one has been repainted." - Fantom...

I think one is an Ovation and one may have been an Encore....

 

-a-

 

[Mcstealth]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

 There is one of these on our Field. It is very cool looking. Distinct but not gaudy. I really like it.

Lets see if I can get a picture.