Avidyne IFD 540/440-Garmin 500 software bug

[LANCECASPER]

On 6/15/2017 at 0:24 PM, PTK said:

A miscalibration by the installer and an advisory AI on an ipad does not ground the airplane. A GPS/NAV/Comm incompatible with the state of the art pfd/mfd has.

But a reasonable person understands the difference.

 Care to try again?! 

I'd love to, thanks.

Again a reasonable person knows not to make a complete fool out of himself by making dogmatic statements about a product he has never used, especially when it is about something that all will get sorted out.

I'm an optimistic person and I'm confident that Garmin is working just as hard as Avidyne to resolve this since the Red X's that are on their G500's are what is grounding his airplane. Garmin advertises that the G500 "interfaces with popular avionics".  "G500 is an affordable, dual-screen electronic flight display that works with your avionics stack to provide a fully certified “glass cockpit” retrofit option."    https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/63598

The Avidyne IFD540 with the previous software worked great with the previous Garmin 500 software. Both companies continually make updates to their software. The dealer should have confirmed with both companies what software versions were compatible with each other before doing any updates to his customer's airplane. That's why they charge $100 an hour for their services to get it right. As we continue to keep moving forward toward software based solutions in our panels it will take more diligence on the part of all manufacturers and installers to work together and get it right for the customer and not point at each other.

By the way, Red X's on Garmin 500/600/900/1000 products are not uncommon and none of the examples below are Avidyne related. But Garmin is a good company and they keep working through the issues and it all gets sorted out. No reasonable person is suggesting that a customer tear out the product and start over with something else.

http://garmin.blogs.com/aviationalerts/2013/12/service-advisory-1361-rev-a-possible-temporary-loss-of-headingattitude-information-in-garmin-g500-an.html

http://garmin.blogs.com/aviationalerts/2013/11/service-advisory-1118-rev-a-momentary-failure-indications-red-x-can-occur-when-sorting-stored-flight.html

http://garmin.blogs.com/aviationalerts/2013/11/service-advisory-0929-rev-a-momentary-failure-indications-red-x-can-occur-when-deleting-stored-data.html

https://www.flyhpa.com/2011/08/dealing-with-ahrsadc-failures/

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=109490

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=115734

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=109342

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=63381

 

[Godfather]

Problems can happen.  What defines a company is the systematic way the dealers/internet support/software engineers/CEO attack the problem and provide a high level of customer service during the process. 

I feel Avidyne is doing the right thing. It was IMO above and beyond to reimburse the shop fees incurred thus far. I'm sure all available man power is trying to correct this problem. 

I have to ask, @AviSimpson do you have an Aspen testbed to screen for software incompatibility issues?

[Simpson Bennett]

12 hours ago, Godfather said:

I have to ask, @AviSimpson do you have an Aspen testbed to screen for software incompatibility issues?

Yes, we do. We also have one in our lab and our CEOs airplane so there is no shortage of Aspens.

[MIm20c]

As someone looking at a 440 this is good to know!

[Mooney in Oz]

On 16/06/2017 at 10:41 AM, Godfather said:

Problems can happen.  What defines a company is the systematic way the dealers/internet support/software engineers/CEO attack the problem and provide a high level of customer service during the process. 

I feel Avidyne is doing the right thing. It was IMO above and beyond to reimburse the shop fees incurred thus far. I'm sure all available man power is trying to correct this problem. 

I have to ask, @AviSimpson do you have an Aspen testbed to screen for software incompatibility issues?

Avidyne worked hard and conquered the compatibility issues I had between between my GMX200 and IFD540. Garmin also did their bit when I had JeppView issues associated with this compatibility issue.

Thinwing - easy for me to say, but I'm confident a solution is near.

Victor

[OliverBucher]

On 14.6.2017 at 1:07 AM, PTK said:

Any progress with the Avidyne fiasco thinwing?

Are there any news about software update of the IFD 's?

Due to I have the failure also in flight (during take off roll) it is not so funny :-(

[Simpson Bennett]

1 hour ago, OliverBucher said:

Are there any news about software update of the IFD 's?

Due to I have the failure also in flight (during take off roll) it is not so funny :-(

This is a separate case from the issue experienced on the ground. At the end of May I had requested that you have your installer contact our Tech Support team directly to cover some troubleshooting items, were you able to do that?

The satellite constellation in Europe is different than the one that covers the US. The G500 takes GPS data to aid its AHARS computations. Since your reported issue occurs in conjunction with a GPS lock loss on the IFD and in a steep turn (where GPS RF strength can change), it leads us to believe that something obscures the antenna view from the satellites. It could be the wing, it could be the T-tail, it could be a number of components.

In regards to the issue that @thinwing and some other G500 users were experiencing, we are in the process of testing a fix. The fix to this issue is the primary driving force behind our next release (Release 10.2.1). I will update everyone once we are closer to releasing the software.

[PTK]

2 hours ago, OliverBucher said:

Are there any news about software update of the IFD 's?

Due to I have the failure also in flight (during take off roll) it is not so funny :-(

No worries Oliver...take a number! Avidyne is working on their issues! All of them! 

[LANCECASPER]

2 hours ago, PTK said:

No worries Oliver...take a number! Avidyne is working on their issues! All of them! 

Now if only Peter would work on his

[tony]

4 hours ago, AviSimpson said:

 

The satellite constellation in Europe is different than the one that covers the US.

The GPS satellite constellation?  

[EricJ]

5 hours ago, AviSimpson said:

The satellite constellation in Europe is different than the one that covers the US. 

46 minutes ago, tony said:

The GPS satellite constellation?  

There are multiple navigation satellite systems, but they all have global coverage and are all Global Navigation Satellite Systems (GNSS).    The US deployed GPS, the Russians deployed GLONASS, the Europeans deployed Galileo, and the Chinese are deploying Beidou.   Why does everybody need one?   For defense/security reasons no large power wants to be dependent on somebody else's system, since those somebodies could conceivably turn their system off (or deny it to other others via scrambling, etc.) to disadvantage you in a conflict.   GPS used to have Selective Availability, where they could turn accuracy way down for everybody but the military users, but that was abandoned a long time ago due to practical reasons.

Some receivers can simultaneously receive and process and navigate from multiple GNSS systems, (e.g., GPS and Galileo), but it is sometimes difficult to find out such details from manufacturers.    As more chipsets integrate multiple systems it will likely become more common.   Some systems have better theoretical performance limits than others, too (Galileo is better than GPS, partly because it was designed later).

The bottom line is that whatever system you are using, it will work globally.

[tony]

10 hours ago, EricJ said:

There are multiple navigation satellite systems, but they all have global coverage and are all Global Navigation Satellite Systems (GNSS).    The US deployed GPS, the Russians deployed GLONASS, the Europeans deployed Galileo, and the Chinese are deploying Beidou.   Why does everybody need one?   For defense/security reasons no large power wants to be dependent on somebody else's system, since those somebodies could conceivably turn their system off (or deny it to other others via scrambling, etc.) to disadvantage you in a conflict.   GPS used to have Selective Availability, where they could turn accuracy way down for everybody but the military users, but that was abandoned a long time ago due to practical reasons.

Some receivers can simultaneously receive and process and navigate from multiple GNSS systems, (e.g., GPS and Galileo), but it is sometimes difficult to find out such details from manufacturers.    As more chipsets integrate multiple systems it will likely become more common.   Some systems have better theoretical performance limits than others, too (Galileo is better than GPS, partly because it was designed later).

The bottom line is that whatever system you are using, it will work globally.

Thanks Eric, but I was wanting for Simpson to tell me how the GPS (those are the 24 low earth orbit satellites that the United States launched) constellation of satellites is different in Europe than in the US.  Because its not.  They only difference is the WAAS correction satellite the Europeans launched.  Which was irrelevant to the original question.  

Edited June 22, 2017 by tony

[xcrmckenna]

I don't know, with all of this Garmin and Avidyne slamming Im starting to think the Bendix King KSN 770 is the way to go........


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[gsxrpilot]

55 minutes ago, xcrmckenna said:

I don't know, with all of this Garmin and Avidyne slamming Im starting to think the Bendix King KSN 770 is the way to go........

Before you go there...

 

[PTK]

9 hours ago, tony said:

Thanks Eric, but I was wanting for Simpson to tell me how the GPS (those are the 24 low earth orbit satellites that the United States launched) constellation of satellites is different in Europe than in the US.  Because its not.  They only difference is the WAAS correction satellite the Europeans launched.  Which was irrelevant to the original question.  

First he blamed Garmin and that didn't work. Now he blames the satellites?! In the mean time Avidyne is holding on to these poor folks' money while their plane is grounded!  But they are working on it!

Who are you going to blame next Simpson!? The Russians?! 

[LANCECASPER]

Avidyne has 1st class tech support. Before the IFD550 was approved Avidyne had a special for IFD540 owners to upgrade, which I did and swapped out myself. Zero install costs and a new warranty.

I had to get my configurations right so that it talked to my traffic and weather so I called in this morning for the first time to Avidyne Tech Support. I never look forward to calling tech support in any company. To my surprise, a human, Jack Musgrave, answered on the second ring and asked me how my day was going. He could not possibly have been more helpful or have had a better attitude. He went into the lab and put the configurations in on the same setup I have and made sure before we were done that everything was working properly. He thanked me for calling and said that it makes his day so much better when he gets to talk to customers out in the field and that they learn so much by the way people are using these units. I already knew that Avidyne was a great company but this further confirmed it.

I have no doubt that Avidyne will sort through the software upgrades that they and Garmin have made and will get the unit that this post is about talking to the new software version of the G500. Moving forward I think this post is a good lesson to all of us that have multiple boxes in the panel, whether the same or different brands, that we want to confirm compatibility before we allow anyone to do a software upgrade on any box.

Garmin is a good company too, and to be honest once you finally do get through their phone system and wait on hold and end up talking to a person they are very competent as well, but whatever Avidyne is doing to keep people live Jack Musgrave motivated to do his job is working.

I am really looking forward to the synthetic vision that Avidyne has on the IFD550. Also the redundancy of having another attitude reference to check. This is something that no one else offers on their GPS/NAV/COM.

 

[PTK]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

Avidyne has 1st class tech support. Before the IFD550 was approved Avidyne had a special for IFD540 owners to upgrade, which I did and swapped out myself. Zero install costs and a new warranty.

I had to get my configurations right so that it talked to my traffic and weather so I called in this morning for the first time to Avidyne Tech Support. I never look forward to calling tech support in any company. To my surprise, a human, Jack Musgrave, answered on the second ring and asked me how my day was going. He could not possibly have been more helpful or have had a better attitude. He went into the lab and put the configurations in on the same setup I have and made sure before we were done that everything was working properly. He thanked me for calling and said that it makes his day so much better when he gets to talk to customers out in the field and that they learn so much by the way people are using these units. I already knew that Avidyne was a great company but this further confirmed it.

I have no doubt that Avidyne will sort through the software upgrades that they and Garmin have made and will get the unit that this post is about talking to the new software version of the G500. Moving forward I think this post is a good lesson to all of us that have multiple boxes in the panel, whether the same or different brands, that we want to confirm compatibility before we allow anyone to do a software upgrade on any box.

Garmin is a good company too, and to be honest once you finally do get through their phone system and wait on hold and end up talking to a person they are very competent as well, but whatever Avidyne is doing to keep people live Jack Musgrave motivated to do his job is working.

I am really looking forward to the synthetic vision that Avidyne has on the IFD550. Also the redundancy of having another attitude reference to check. This is something that no one else offers on their GPS/NAV/COM.

 

You left out a few details perhaps because they are inconvenient to your argument:

The G500 update was released way before the Avidyne update. Therefore they should have tested it. At the very least they should've warned their customers if it was not tested for compatibility. Not play dumb and say they didn't know of the G500 update release. That's just irresponsible and disrespectful to their customer.

I agree with you there are good people working at both companies. They are just more competent at Garmin.

And you can pick up the phone and speak to a field engineer at Garmin and they will help you. They will even thank you for calling! Imagine that!

The best thing Avidyne can do right now to hopefully control the damage is refund the customers with grounded airplanes.  

 

[LANCECASPER]

Just now, PTK said:

You left out a few details perhaps because they are inconvenient to your argument:

The G500 update was released way before the Avidyne update. Therefore they should have tested it. At the very least they should've warned their customers if it was not tested for compatibility. Not say they didn't know of the G500 update release. 

Your statement is completely false. Please get your facts straight before you make a comment on something you know nothing about. Since you own neither a G500 nor any Avidyne product your posts are long on theory complete devoid of fact.

The G500 update was released after the Avidyne 10.2 update was complete and submitted for FAA approval. This was before it was approved and released, since it takes several months for this to happen. Once it is submitted there is no provision for revising it. While 10.2 was in the approval process the new G500 software was released. It would have been impossible to test 10.2 before it was submitted with the new Garmin software because Garmin hadn't released it yet. The avionics shop of the one who originally posted took a software combination that had never been confirmed compatible and installed it in a customer's airplane - that's where the problem is. Once again, I'm sure Avidyne is working on this and when 10.2.1 is released then they will let everyone know that's it's safe to update to the new G500 Software. 

[PTK]

50 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

Your statement is completely false. Please get your facts straight before you make a comment on something you know nothing about. Since you own neither a G500 nor any Avidyne product your posts are long on theory complete devoid of fact.

The G500 update was released after the Avidyne 10.2 update was complete and submitted for FAA approval. This was before it was approved and released, since it takes several months for this to happen. Once it is submitted there is no provision for revising it. While 10.2 was in the approval process the new G500 software was released. It would have been impossible to test 10.2 before it was submitted with the new Garmin software because Garmin hadn't released it yet. The avionics shop of the one who originally posted took a software combination that had never been confirmed compatible and installed it in a customer's airplane - that's where the problem is. Once again, I'm sure Avidyne is working on this and when 10.2.1 is released then they will let everyone know that's it's safe to update to the new G500 Software. 

Please get your facts straight because what you say is not correct. Simpson is confused and so are you. It's totally understandable to be confused but he represents the company and he should get his facts straight. Go back and read again. 

Avidyne dropped the ball by not warning customers that they hadn't tested for compatibility. What do they do instead when the issues surface? They play dumb!

But on a broader note, this illustrates the real nature of this beast with mixing manufacturers. It's a major and chronic issue Avidyne customers will be facing. What happens going forward? 

Unless Avidyne develops an intergrated solution of their own to compete with G they will never go beyond just replacing the GNS. And who suffers? The good old customer!

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, PTK said:

1) Please get your facts straight because what you say is not correct. Simpson is confused and so are you. It's totally understandable to be confused but he represents the company and he should get his facts straight. Go back and read again. 

2) Avidyne dropped the ball by not warning customers that they hadn't tested compatibility. 

3) What do they do instead when the issues surface? They play dumb!

1) Once again, you are wrong and you offer nothing to back up your bogus claims. Avidyne locked down and submitted 10.2 to the FAA for approval in the summer of 2016.

2) It was already confirmed working with the current G500 software at the time.

Garmin then released an optional update for the G500 GDU 7.12 in November 2016 (http://garmin.blogs.com/files/1665a_asdn.pdf). The FAA signed off on 10.2 in March 2017. Avidyne's update was also optional, not mandatory.

I am going to say this slowly so even you can understand . . . t-h-e   s-h-o-p   t-h-a-t   d-i-d   t-h-e   w-o-r-k   s-h-o-u-l-d   h-a-v-e   v-e-r-i-f-i-e-d   c-o-m-p-a-t-i-b-i-l-i-t-y   b-e-f-o-r-e   t-h-e-y   w-e-n-t   a-h-e-a-d   w-i-t-h   a-n-y   s-o-f-t-w-a-r-e    u-p-d-a-t-e-s   o-n   e-i-t-h-e-r   b-o-x.

3) Avidyne responded the same day it was reported and was already investigating. Once again your claim that they were playing dumb is a complete lie. 

The silver lining in all of this is that the rest us go to bed every night thankful that we don't have to live with you or deal with you on a daily basis. When you make untrue statements on here though people will call you out, which they should. I really want to like you, but you make it so difficult.

We are all very sympathetic to those who live with and work with you. 

[PTK]

I wish you wouldn't resort to personal attacks unless you can't help it. Try to focus and keep civil if you can. 

Why are you so fast in blaming the shop? Did Avidyne inform the shop about the lack of version compatibility testing?

 

[LANCECASPER]

27 minutes ago, PTK said:

1) I wish you wouldn't resort to personal attacks unless you can't help it. Try to focus and keep civil if you can.

2) Why are you so fast in blaming the shop? Did Avidyne inform the shop of version compatibility?

 

1) When you first say that I intentionally left out facts you opened the door. I am going to defend myself against your lies.

2) Yes you're right, Avidyne sits around all day peering into a crystal ball wondering who might be contemplating a software update. Then their crisis intervention department begins randomly dialing numbers hoping to reach the shop in time. It's a shame they were late in reaching this shop. Or maybe there's a better way . . . looking at it from the other point of view, maybe the shop would be earning their money by checking on the Garmin and Avidyne dealer websites to first verify that the combination has been tested or maybe even making a call before going ahead.

I'm done. If you don't have the common sense to understand that you need more help than anyone on here can offer.

[PTK]

There you go again! 

[PTK]

47 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

1) When you first say that I intentionally left out facts you opened the door. I am going to defend myself against your lies.

2) Yes you're right, Avidyne sits around all day peering into a crystal ball wondering who might be contemplating a software update. Then their crisis intervention department begins randomly dialing numbers hoping to reach the shop in time. It's a shame they were late in reaching this shop. Or maybe there's a better way . . . looking at it from the other point of view, maybe the shop would be earning their money by checking on the Garmin and Avidyne dealer websites to first verify that the combination has been tested or maybe even making a call before going ahead.

I'm done. If you don't have the common sense to understand that you need more help than anyone on here can offer.

Maybe Avidyne, aspiring to drive a G500 panel, would be checking and monitoring Garmin for any updates. They had no idea when the G500 update was released! 

... it's "possible" it came out during that time... Simpson.

So, yes, you're right, it seems they are sitting around looking at a crystal ball when they should be proactively monitoring Garmin! And of you're going to talk about the shop earning their keep, how about Avidyne earning their keep? They are holding on to about 20K$ per installation and the airplanes are grounded!

Have you reconsidered blaming the shop?

[LANCECASPER]

6 minutes ago, PTK said:

Maybe Avidyne, aspiring to drive a G500 panel, would be checking and monitoring Garmin for any updates. They had no idea when the G500 update was released! 

... it's "possible" it came out during that time... Simpson.

So, yes you're right, it seems they are sitting around looking at a crystal ball when they should be proactively monitoring Garmin! 

Have you reconsidered blaming the shop?

No, because . .  t-h-e   s-h-o-p   t-h-a-t   d-i-d   t-h-e   w-o-r-k   s-h-o-u-l-d   h-a-v-e   v-e-r-i-f-i-e-d   c-o-m-p-a-t-i-b-i-l-i-t-y   b-e-f-o-r-e   t-h-e-y   w-e-n-t   a-h-e-a-d   w-i-t-h   a-n-y   s-o-f-t-w-a-r-e    u-p-d-a-t-e-s   o-n   e-i-t-h-e-r   b-o-x.

This may be hard to understand but not every version of software on one box is compatible with every version of software on another box. The person doing the updates is responsible to verify first.