New (lady) member - Considering an M20G

[Yetti]

The service manual has a description of weeping fuel and what is ok and what is needing further attention.  Fuel in the wing is beyond the limits.

[ArtVandelay]

I thought Js came with an autopilot as standard equipment?

[DXB]

18 hours ago, Sophie said:

Based on some further research and the feedback provided by this group I'm broadening my view to include M20E, F and J. There was an extremely useful write up on how to make the rear seat fold down ... Thanks ... so the useful payload for a bicycle is no longer an issue ... yay !!! Thanks.

If considering the E, might as well add the M20C to the list then - same simple bulletproof carb'd O-360 as the M20G.  It gives up its comfy back seat for speed and useful load approximating that of the F. If you find a good one, the M20C's bargain prices leave money left over to blow on lavish upgrades - ask me how! 

And welcome by the way - this place needs you at least as much as you need it.

[Sophie]

Hi DXB, 

This is a really great point. So far I have the following must satisfy check list:-

1. Must have been a loved aircraft and not have any deferred maintenance. Ensure fuel tanks, landing gear/pucks, glass, prop have been attended to and any engine work is done properly 

2. Must have been hangared and have minimal corrosion 

3. No serious damage incidents (gear up landings, severe impacts, abuse) 

4. Interior has been kept well and refreshed when appropriate

Is there a fifth item regarding minimum avionics to make sure you can do an economic upgrade establishing a really nice IFR capability for a reasonable price.

Thanks for the +ve encouragement 

Sophie 

  

 

[Hank]

FYI, Sophie.  In our Mooneys,  gear up landing is not "serious damage." It does require new prop and engine teardown; beyond that, it's pretty much belly blinker and antennas, and repair to flap hinges, step and maybe the flaps depending in usage. Many planes are upgraded during the repair with nice-to-haves like one piece belly.

[Sophie]

Hi Hank, 

Thanks for that insight I have come across some nice aircraft that have experienced a gear up landing and I wasn't sure how to view it. I also came across an aircraft the other day that had some tail damage and rather than going through the normal reporting and repair process they unbolted the tail section and bolted a new one on. An unorthodox but clever solution to perform a repair with "parts" ... too clever perhaps ?

S 

 

[Hank]

4 minutes ago, Sophie said:

Hi Hank, 

Thanks for that insight I have come across some nice aircraft that have experienced a gear up landing and I wasn't sure how to view it. I also came across an aircraft the other day that had some tail damage and rather than going through the normal reporting and repair process they unbolted the tail section and bolted a new one on. An unorthodox but clever solution to perform a repair with "parts" ... too clever perhaps ?

S 

 

With that type of fepair, it's all in HOW it was done. Run a copy of the logs covering it past a knowledgeable mechanic, if he likes it and you like the rest of the olane, it would be worth a PPI if you can reach agreement on  price.

The general wisdom on Mooneys is that a recent  gear up creates a 10% price reduction,  but by eight or ten years in the past, there is no value reduction  (assuming proper repair, good workmanship and continued flight in the interim, proving that everything still works). My Mooney had a gear up 5 years before I bought it.

[Sophie]

Thanks Hank ... is there a definitive place people use as the KBB of Mooney's. So far I've used VREF on AOPA ... any other sites that are useful ?

-S 

[DXB]

29 minutes ago, Sophie said:

Thanks Hank ... is there a definitive place people use as the KBB of Mooney's. So far I've used VREF on AOPA ... any other sites that are useful ?

-S 

Another one is the Jimmy Garrison (All American Aircraft) Valuation Tool:

http://themooneyflyer.com/tool.html

It gives retail numbers that may be a bit on the high end per my impression.  Not sure there is anything that is really "definitive." 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Sophie said:

Thanks Hank ... is there a definitive place people use as the KBB of Mooney's. So far I've used VREF on AOPA ... any other sites that are useful ?

-S 

Jimmy's is pretty good. He earns his living buying and selling planes, and he moves a lot of Mooneys.

[Yetti]

Pretty close to 2020.... ADSB out solution could be added to the list.

[Shadrach]

Welcome Sophie,

If broadening your search to short body models (B,C,E) you should really take a look at the cabin with regards to carrying a bicycle.  I have loaded both road and mountain bikes (wheels off) in my F model with the seats folded down. I have to say that there was not a lot of margin.  I'm dubious that I could have managed with 10" less in the baggage and rear seat area.

Happy hunting!

[Yetti]

The later F models at least around the 1975 range came with fold down seats from the factory.   They really are some of the most comfortable seats I have sat in.  Mrs. Yetti approves also as she sat down and went right to sleep. 

There are some people around here that have done their own interior upgrades which are simple to do.  There is no need to drop $10K on an interior if you want to put that gineering degree to work.

[gsxrpilot]

17 hours ago, Sophie said:

1. Must have been a loved aircraft and not have any deferred maintenance. Ensure fuel tanks, landing gear/pucks, glass, prop have been attended to and any engine work is done properly 

2. Must have been hangared and have minimal corrosion 

3. No serious damage incidents (gear up landings, severe impacts, abuse) 

4. Interior has been kept well and refreshed when appropriate

Is there a fifth item regarding minimum avionics to make sure you can do an economic upgrade establishing a really nice IFR capability for a reasonable price.

Hi Sophie,

Here's my $0.02

1. Yes.
2. ANY corrosion is unacceptable. Corrosion can be repaired, but it can be VERY expensive. If I found corrosion, I would walk away or tell the seller to call you back once the corrosion was completely removed and the airplane was corrosion free.
3. Gear-ups are no big deal. Most Mooney's have been landed gear up and many more than once. Both of my Mooney's had multiple gear-ups in the logs. A proper repair is what is important.
4. This is a nice to have for me, and quite a way down the list.

I would actually reorder the list above... it would be 2,1,3,4 but I'd take gear-ups out of #3.

There is a number 5.  In fact I would put 5 in between 1 and 3 on my reordered list.

Here is my avionics requirements list.

1. Autopilot with altitude hold (deal breaker for me)
2. WAAS GPS (deal breaker for me) I would accept a GNS 430 WAAS as the minimum. Having a 430W or 530W will reduce the cost of ADSB and reduce the cost of upgrading to a modern WAAS GPS as well.
3. 6-pack panel arrangement (almost a deal breaker)
4. HSI (if you don't get a glass panel, an HSI is the next best thing and makes approaches MUCH easier to fly)
5. GMA 340 Audio panel or better with 4 place intercom (allows monitoring of two coms and easy/cheap to upgrade)
6. Engine monitor (I wouldn't fly without one, but at $2500 to $3000 installed, I can add one)
7. ADSB (this can be added for $2500 or less assuming a WAAS source which is a given for me)
8. Digital transponder (makes it even cheaper to upgrade to ADSB)

If we're talking about M20C - M20J Mooney's, I'd bet the difference in asking price between a airplane with none of the above and one with at least 1 - 5 or 1 - 6 will be only $10K at most and might be much less. But the cost to add 1-5 would be $40K.

I'd be ok buying an airplane with 1-3 above as long as it was a good buy and things such as pain/interior, engine hours, maintenance history, etc. were good. For me, the panel is important. It makes the difference between a relaxing 4 hour IFR flight, and work. It's also what you're staring at, every flight, all flight long. Add that to the expense of upgrading avionics, and I think it's just silly to buy a Mooney with a shitty panel.

I'll climb down off the soap box now and yield the remainder of my time to the Gentleman from New Jersey ;-)

[Andy95W]

Anytime someone starts a new thread "I'm thinking of buying..." we should refer them to Paul's post above.  Probably be within the next two weeks or so.

[Yetti]

I tried to start a FAQ....  Met with posts about cars...  Look a squirrel.  ADD is not just for children anymore.

[ArtVandelay]

I tried to start a FAQ....  Met with posts about cars...  Look a squirrel.  ADD is not just for children anymore.

That was so disappointing... I though it was a great idea and have mentioned MS should have a FAQ in the past. I'm going to post to B and S forum.

[Sophie]

Hi All, 

Wow ... this feedback is really ... really appreciated. I helps me and others in future but it also means that I don't waste peoples time when they are trying to sell their pride and joy. 

Thank-you 

S

[Sophie]

Hi,

Thanks for all of the good guidance I think I've come across two planes that I'll move to the next stage with, can I ask for thoughts/views on both. Both have basic AP capability neither with altitude hold. Both have updated avionics with reasonably good 6 packs and both have 3 bladed props.

1. M20C - 1965 high $40s  Electric gear with virtually no speed mods 

TT 2510     SMOH 1007  

Garmin GNS 430 + HSI 
KX165 nav/comm
KT76A transponder
Dual PTT
PS Engineering intercom
EGT
Century IIB Autopilot
GT106A 
AR850
PS2000

2. M20F - 1972 mid $50's - Electric gear with limited (belly pan) speed mods 

TT 4934    SMOH 934

Garmin 300XL Moving Map
King KX 155
KN 64 DME
KT 76A Transponder
Cell phone port
Davtron M800 Clock
Davtron M655
Brittain Autopilot 

Trying to weigh up the benefits of both. I'd love some opinions 

S

Edited March 10, 2017 by Sophie

[Hank]

Love the Brittain autopilot. Would be nice to have it and the G430; is it a WAAS GPS?

Does either plane have the guppy mouth closure? It does little for speed, but much for cooling. Or you can wait and get a whole new front from @Sabremech when they become available.

Dual PTT is nice; there are threads here about adding one on the right (easy).

4-place intercom is nice; 2-place is pretty much mandatory for me. The cell phone input has little value if you wear a clamp-on headset--just dial the phone and shove it under an ear cup. I miss this with my Halos, but not enough to go back. Maybe it will work as a simple music input?

Both are halfway through engine life. The 4000 hour TT is not a concern, although it does lower the value a little bit.

Both have the KT76A, so will need some sort of change if you want to comply with ADS-B; investigate costs for this if you need it.

The fuel I jetted engine in the F will cost more to overhaul, use slightly  ore fuel, and outpace the carbureted C by an average of 8-10 knots. My C, with guppy mouth closure and 201 windshield, runs ~148 KTAS; Fs seem to run 155-ish.

[carusoam]

F = C with 10" added for Back seaters and Fuel injection for the pilot.  Always priced 10-20 AMU higher than a similar C

Back seaters prefer the F...

Front seaters prefer the FI...

Back Seaters with money are allowed more leg room...  with money = pay their own way or have moved out of the house.  

Back seaters that have no money are lucky to be brought along...

Back seaters that complain about the leg room, get even less when the pilot pushes the seat back... 

There was only a brief period of time that I had full sized backseaters...

Best regards,

-a-

Edited March 10, 2017 by carusoam

[Hank]

Hot starts:  easy with the O-360 (B, C, D, G). I've lost count of the threads debating the best way to hot start the IO-360 (E, F, J), much less the tremendous variations in methodology . . . Go C!

Edited March 10, 2017 by Hank

[Hank]

4 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Most of those threads are populated by folks who don't own IOs and might not have ever even cranked one; just perpetuating myths.

Avatars in last week's thread showed many F and J owners, some with their own magic formula that "works every time," others who asked for help with difficult hot starts. 

But what do I know? In my C, I just pump the throttle once, push Mixture Rich, wait a few seconds and turn the key.

[Yetti]

I would go with the F.  You can also post a link to the plane and the peanut gallery will give feedback.   As you get serious, look into ordering the FAA CD on the plane it is a valuable look into the history.

 

[Sophie]

Hi Yetti, 

Great idea and feedback is very welcome. Here are the two "current" candidates 

1. M20 C - http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20C+MARK+21&listing_id=2243241&s-type=aircraft

2. M20 F - http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20F&listing_id=2206631&s-type=aircraft

There are a couple of other likely contenders. I visited #1 today ... very nice, well maintained and documented. Started up very easily and sounded great, was a little surprised we couldn't take it for a fly because the owner was waiting for a new air worthiness cert from FAA. He didn't have it hangared with full tanks which seemed a little odd, The log book shows the right fuel cell was resealed and the fuel quantity sending unit was replaced by Don Gerbrandt (10/25/2012). There is an unusual stain on the carpet on the floor of the pilots footwell, you can see it in the pictures. I gather it happened prior to the current owner purchasing it. The installation of the Garmin was IFR and the instruments were really nicely laid out. Didn't appear to be any deferred maintenance, in fact the Garmin had just been refurbished when it was sent in to have it's battery replaced. 

Thoughts/views appreciated 

S