Abysmal Commercial Pilot

[201er]

37 minutes ago, salty said:

I dunno. I'm a newb you wouldn't want to fly with anyway, but I sure wouldn't want you in my right seat. That flight would suck for both of us. Maybe you should sit in the back and take pictures out the window, sitting in the right seat didn't fix any of your complaints anyway. 

I want to fly with a pilot that is good at what he does but always trying to be even better. I don't believe that aviation is the place to settle for mediocrity.

[larryb]

Regarding the mag check...

A few months ago I flew my plane home from it's Annual. Then my wife and I loaded it up for a trip. Within 45 minutes I was back in the runup area and unable to get a clean mag check. Tried burning it off multiples times with no success. Back to the hanger, pull the suspected plug. Gotta love that engine monitor that told me exactly which plug was the problem. I found a tiny lead ball shorting out the electrode. Back to the runup area, clean mag check, and off we went.

The ignition system does not know it's the first flight of the day. A failed mag check can happen on any takeoff attempt. 

Larry

[Marauder]

Since I started the churn concerning checklists, let me chime in with additional thoughts. If you were to fly with me, you would see me do a flow of the panel and then pull up a checklist to make sure I did the killer items. Maybe not the system that works for many pilots, but it works for me.

Same goes when I enter the different phases of a flight. I flow the panel and confirm with a checklist.

As for the rest I have flown with:

I fly regularly with a high time Mooney owner/CFII. He flies his plane like Mike, he uses the checklist items on the panel. Nothing more. In the hours I have flown with him, the system works for him. He doesn't miss anything.

Then there are those pilots I have flown with that use a checklist as a "to do" list. I have seen this used both fully -- meaning that they go step by step and if interrupted, will redo the list to make sure they didn't miss anything. Not the best system, but it works for them. Then there are those use the checklist as a "to do" but when interrupted, they struggle to regroup.

The worst are those I have flown with who don't use any sort of checklist and rely solely on memory. Those are the guys when flying as a safety pilot are the ones I prod to open their cowl flaps, retract their gear, flaps, turn off their boost pump, remind them of the missed approach procedure -- you know the minor stuff.

And for the record, I have forgotten to retract flaps, gear, shutoff the boost pump, blah, blah, blah. But I did catch it on the checklist afterwards.


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[201er]

7 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Since I started the churn concerning checklists, let me chime in with additional thoughts. If you were to fly with me, you would see me do a flow of the panel and then pull up a checklist to make sure I did the killer items. Maybe not the system that works for many pilots, but it works for me.

Chris, can you clarify exactly what you mean by checklist?

[Marauder]

Chris, can you clarify exactly what you mean by checklist?

A list of key aviation tasks that need to be completed or verified that they need to be completed.


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[Yetti]

do we know if these people had a commercial license?   did they even have a license?   does the country they were flying in require them to have a license?

[201er]

10 minutes ago, Marauder said:

A list of key aviation tasks that need to be completed or verified that they need to be completed.

 

So funny... 

i mean do you use the flight manual? One of those commercially available airplane specific lists, your own custom paper list, a mnemonic, a memorized checklist, notes all over the panel on post its?

[201er]

10 minutes ago, Yetti said:

do we know if these people had a commercial license?   did they even have a license?   does the country they were flying in require them to have a license?

He was operating as a commercial pilot. That's all I know. He did say he got flight training in South Africa. I was comparing to US commercial/private test standards because that is all I am familiar with. I also realized many of these errors had to do with the specific pilot because the first one set the DG, turned on the transponder, and appeared to follow a checklist (though from the back I did not see it specifically) before takeoff. 

[MyNameIsNobody]

57 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Since I started the churn concerning checklists, let me chime in with additional thoughts. If you were to fly with me, you would see me do a flow of the panel and then pull up a checklist to make sure I did the killer items. Maybe not the system that works for many pilots, but it works for me.

Same goes when I enter the different phases of a flight. I flow the panel and confirm with a checklist.

As for the rest I have flown with:

I fly regularly with a high time Mooney owner/CFII. He flies his plane like Mike, he uses the checklist items on the panel. Nothing more. In the hours I have flown with him, the system works for him. He doesn't miss anything.

Then there are those pilots I have flown with that use a checklist as a "to do" list. I have seen this used both fully -- meaning that they go step by step and if interrupted, will redo the list to make sure they didn't miss anything. Not the best system, but it works for them. Then there are those use the checklist as a "to do" but when interrupted, they struggle to regroup.

The worst are those I have flown with who don't use any sort of checklist and rely solely on memory. Those are the guys when flying as a safety pilot are the ones I prod to open their cowl flaps, retract their gear, flaps, turn off their boost pump, remind them of the missed approach procedure -- you know the minor stuff.

And for the record, I have forgotten to retract flaps, gear, shutoff the boost pump, blah, blah, blah. But I did catch it on the checklist afterwards.


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I have a Check-Mate Checklist designed for my plane.  I do my pre-flight that always involves a physical walk-around of plane to include taking off fuel caps/dipping and sumping tanks.  Checking oil/confirming dipstick replaced.  Prop visual inspection/Tires.  I work aileron's and check down and up each side through full travel.  I work elevator up/down.  After I board and strap in I review my physical checklist and confirm All initial items were done.  I say them out loud.  I extend take-off flaps and visually look out windows to confirm they are both deployed.  I visually inspect take off trim.  I touch gear light and say down.  I look at Johnson bar.  I confirm fuel quantity on Gage's.  I set the totalizer for proper known quantity (52 or dipped total).  I confirm baggage door closed and fastened as I board.  I do NOT lock with key the baggage door.

Interior: I confirm fuel on proper tank with visual inspection.  Confirm seat is adjusted/locked.  After passengers board I confirm straps fastened.  I closed door and lock from pilot seat.  I confirm co-pilot seat locked and visually inspect for seat belt on and NOT blocking Johnson bar swing.

Start-Confirm All auto-pilots OFF and PC is OFF.  Ram air Closed Read and view knob.  Already visually inspected door closed on walk around.  Boost pump I confirm fuel pressure visually.  I have already started and set the dash clock.  I start the hour timer after engine start.  Separate confirmations at Pre Taxi/TaxiRun-UP/Pre-Takeoff/Takeoff/Climb/Cruise/Descent/Pre-Landing/Landing/After Landing (after checklist on short final I re-do GUMPS with a physical grasping of J-Bar handl and downward pull (WITHOUT THUMB DETENT) to ensure down/locked on gear.  /Securing.  After cruise I reverse Check-MATE to have emergency procedures right in my face.  Panel scan throughout flight.

My biggest "forget" item is retracting take-off flaps.  I didn't always use and now do.  It has been a re-learning.  I ask my co-pilot to "remind me" with a "Did you retract flaps"? After take-off.

After my Gear-UP I NEVER am without the checklist.  I catch myself on an intermittent basis forgetting items in my scan review.  The physical check-list review is my reminder/confirmation and DO IN THE EVENT OF MISSED ITEM.

This was the PRIMARY expectation by FAA.  Have a checklist and USE IT.

It is a potential life and metal/Mooney saver.  I am fallible.  I know that for a fact.  I am Human.  Human's make errors.  Some of these will kill you or others you love/care about.

[kmyfm20s]

I think recently a U.S. commercial pilot had drink a 12 pack of beer as number 1 on his checklist.

[jlunseth]

I am of mixed minds on this one.  A couple of years ago I sat right seat in a plane that was unfamiliar (turbo converted Otter).  The pilot did not use any checklist that I saw, nothing that went on the plane was weighed, I never saw a DG get set, and when he landed that plane at Mudhole Smith Airport in Cordova, believe it or not he did not use an approach that lined us up with the runway and wound up landing it crosswise on a runway that was only about 100' wide.  He never held a straight course during the entire trip, nor did we fly at a constant altitude.  Did I feel unsafe?  Not for a moment.  It was Alaska, we were VFR, the pilot flies that route every day in some of worst, most variable weather conditions you can imagine, and after 27,000 hours flying for Delta and now being a bush pilot in AK, he knows his stuff, he uses flows not checklists, and he knows his flows really well.  His useful load is about double what the six of us plus gear could possibly weigh.  Oh, and he landed that fully loaded Otter across the runway because that was into the prevailing wind, there was another hundred feet of gravel pad, so he had a total of 200 feet to stop the plane.  He used about half of it.  I flew with another pilot up there who, believe it or not!, missed the beach and landed in the surf!!!! They do it that way because the dry sand up on the beach is soft and variable, but the sand where the waves are wetting it is hard packed and safe.  And no, he did not set a DG either, no point.  He just flew the coast line for about 45 minutes until we got to our camp.  There are a lot of very good bush pilots who operate exactly this way, having done the takeoff under all conditions of wind, temp. and loading, they know they are safe, and in any event their aircraft are equipped to land anywhere in the bush, and they have often done just that.  It is not uncommon in AK to fly up a coast and, if the weather drops to an unsafe level, just land on the beach and wait it out. It is not uncommon to land a wheel plane in a river if it is "fat tire" equipped. Not a very big deal.  So I would not have a heart attack when a bush pilot flies like a bush pilot.  That landing across the runway was one of the best I have ever seen.

On the other hand, even a bush pilot needs to know what the rules are and when the aircraft loading or whatever parameter happens to be an issue, is reaching its limit.  It was the case a long time ago that they would just paint a line on the pontoons in Can. and AK, load the plane until the line hit water level, and go.  Years ago I was a member of a fishing club, and there was a trip I was not on.  They did a flyout to a remote lake to fish one day, and some idiot came to pick them up.  The winds had picked up pretty badly.  Two of the guys were sitting on the gear piled in back without seat belts.  On takeoff in the rough water the pontoons stubbed, the plane pitched over, the engine stopped and the two guys were ejected with quite a lot of gear into the lake.  The plane drifted away in the heavy winds, with the now dead engine.  One of the guys had a broken arm but was picked up.  The other fellow was fairly slight, became hypothermic, and went down.  That was that.  The pilot was charged with manslaughter (they do that in Canada), and spent quite awhile in jail.  I doubt that was much consolation to the father of the boy who died.  For decades after, they have made it clear in Canada that loads must be weighed, so we put all the stuff on a scale.  Not coming back out though.  No scales at the remote camps, and they know that whatever the load was going in, a fair amount of it is now at the bottom of the latrine so w & b is not an issue on the return.

On another flight I sat right seat in a Beaver, and like a lot of Beavers the entire plane was lined with pads filled with excelsior.  For those of you who don't know what I am talking about, excelsior is shredded wood, and it was used to line the walls of the old DeHavillands to prevent damage to the walls.  We had a substitute pilot, not the guy we were used to flying with.  He was smoking (this was back in the day when you could), and about half way to our camp he lost his cigarette.  He tried to surreptitiously search for it in his seat, among the maps he had stashed next to the seat, and we never found it until we landed.  That was about as stupid as it gets.   

If you go expedition flying you have to expect that the rules will be different, and you have to know what you are seeing.  I am not saying the OP didn't, cause I wasn't there.  On the other hand, applying FAA book rules to bush operations in another country is apples and oranges.  

[gsxrpilot]

Botswana actually has pretty strict pilot requirements. It's a popular location for young Brits and other Europeans and South Africans to go to build hours. They have to have at minimum a CPL (no IFR required though), time in type, (usually 206 time or Caravan time) and a minimum of 500 hours.  It used to be 250 hours, but was recently increased. Most of the advertised jobs are asking for 1000 hours.

[Marauder]

So funny... <_> i mean do you use the flight manual? One of those commercially available airplane specific lists, your own custom paper list, a mnemonic, a memorized checklist, notes all over the panel on post its?

Currently, everything is loaded up in Garmin Pilot's checklist section. I also maintain a hard copy of the list (laminated and in the plane). To create this list, I started with the POH and modified accordingly. As you know, my plane, especially the avionics have been highly modified, so I have some items on the list that won't be found in the POH.


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[Danb]

3 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

Currently, everything is loaded up in Garmin Pilot's checklist section. I also maintain a hard copy of the list (laminated and in the plane). To create this list, I started with the POH and modified accordingly. As you know, my plane, especially the avionics have been highly modified, so I have some items on the list that won't be found in the POH.


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I'm in the midst of making a customized checklist/manual, I'm carving in downward from my current 50+ pages

[Mooneymite]

Checklist:

Landing Gear..........down.

(Everything else is a detail).  

We just had an unintentional gear up landing here in our community......  There are no winners.

[MyNameIsNobody]

Big font?

[Marauder]

2 hours ago, Danb said:

I'm in the midst of making a customized checklist/manual, I'm carving in downward from my current 50+ pages

If you need them laminated, let me know. I bought one of those laminating machines a while back.  

[201er]

9 hours ago, jlunseth said:

I am of mixed minds on this one.  A couple of years ago I sat right seat in a plane that was unfamiliar (turbo converted Otter).  The pilot did not use any checklist that I saw, nothing that went on the plane was weighed, I never saw a DG get set, and when he landed that plane at Mudhole Smith Airport in Cordova, believe it or not he did not use an approach that lined us up with the runway and wound up landing it crosswise on a runway that was only about 100' wide.  He never held a straight course during the entire trip, nor did we fly at a constant altitude.  Did I feel unsafe?  Not for a moment.  It was Alaska, we were VFR, the pilot flies that route every day in some of worst, most variable weather conditions you can imagine, and after 27,000 hours flying for Delta and now being a bush pilot in AK, he knows his stuff, he uses flows not checklists, and he knows his flows really well.  His useful load is about double what the six of us plus gear could possibly weigh.  Oh, and he landed that fully loaded Otter across the runway because that was into the prevailing wind, there was another hundred feet of gravel pad, so he had a total of 200 feet to stop the plane.  He used about half of it.  I flew with another pilot up there who, believe it or not!, missed the beach and landed in the surf!!!! They do it that way because the dry sand up on the beach is soft and variable, but the sand where the waves are wetting it is hard packed and safe.  And no, he did not set a DG either, no point.  He just flew the coast line for about 45 minutes until we got to our camp.  There are a lot of very good bush pilots who operate exactly this way, having done the takeoff under all conditions of wind, temp. and loading, they know they are safe, and in any event their aircraft are equipped to land anywhere in the bush, and they have often done just that.  It is not uncommon in AK to fly up a coast and, if the weather drops to an unsafe level, just land on the beach and wait it out. It is not uncommon to land a wheel plane in a river if it is "fat tire" equipped. Not a very big deal.  So I would not have a heart attack when a bush pilot flies like a bush pilot.  That landing across the runway was one of the best I have ever seen.

On the other hand, even a bush pilot needs to know what the rules are and when the aircraft loading or whatever parameter happens to be an issue, is reaching its limit.  It was the case a long time ago that they would just paint a line on the pontoons in Can. and AK, load the plane until the line hit water level, and go.  Years ago I was a member of a fishing club, and there was a trip I was not on.  They did a flyout to a remote lake to fish one day, and some idiot came to pick them up.  The winds had picked up pretty badly.  Two of the guys were sitting on the gear piled in back without seat belts.  On takeoff in the rough water the pontoons stubbed, the plane pitched over, the engine stopped and the two guys were ejected with quite a lot of gear into the lake.  The plane drifted away in the heavy winds, with the now dead engine.  One of the guys had a broken arm but was picked up.  The other fellow was fairly slight, became hypothermic, and went down.  That was that.  The pilot was charged with manslaughter (they do that in Canada), and spent quite awhile in jail.  I doubt that was much consolation to the father of the boy who died.  For decades after, they have made it clear in Canada that loads must be weighed, so we put all the stuff on a scale.  Not coming back out though.  No scales at the remote camps, and they know that whatever the load was going in, a fair amount of it is now at the bottom of the latrine so w & b is not an issue on the return.

On another flight I sat right seat in a Beaver, and like a lot of Beavers the entire plane was lined with pads filled with excelsior.  For those of you who don't know what I am talking about, excelsior is shredded wood, and it was used to line the walls of the old DeHavillands to prevent damage to the walls.  We had a substitute pilot, not the guy we were used to flying with.  He was smoking (this was back in the day when you could), and about half way to our camp he lost his cigarette.  He tried to surreptitiously search for it in his seat, among the maps he had stashed next to the seat, and we never found it until we landed.  That was about as stupid as it gets.   

If you go expedition flying you have to expect that the rules will be different, and you have to know what you are seeing.  I am not saying the OP didn't, cause I wasn't there.  On the other hand, applying FAA book rules to bush operations in another country is apples and oranges.  

Thanks for sharing. I can understand that someone following a river could think setting a DG is unnecessary. I would still disagree. If he suddenly enters a cloud or emerges from disorienting turbulence or does something else that makes him momentarily lose his sense of direction, the DG will guide him in an unpredictability wrong way. I am sure those Alaskan Bush pilots can fly circles around many of us but I still don't see not setting dg as the smart or responsible way to go.

 

As for the flight I described, he was flying a GPS direct course, not bush flying. He was solely flying the magenta line on the GPS (and doing a bad job at that). He set the DG later in flight which makes me think he forgot to set it initially as opposed to intentionally decided not to set it at all. I nit picked a lot of little things to show the quantity of them and try to understand the attitude behind them. I'm sure you could find a thing or two I do wrong on any flight. Surely I've forgotten a boost pump on for a while or not retracted the flaps. However, this will be due to a single distraction and not an intentionally negligent attitude. 

I mentioned a lot of those little mistakes because they help give a glimpse at the kind of pilot that would takeoff with a tailwind at high DA at high weight intentionally and barely clear the trees. What can be learned from this kind of airmanship without concentrating on the country but how one should fly in any case?

[Andy95W]

6 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

Checklist:

Landing Gear..........down.

(Everything else is a detail).  

I'm with Gus.  Seriously, my M20C is just barely more complicated than a C-172.  The only real differences are gear, prop, and cowl flaps.  An M20E/F/J/R is just barely more complicated than mine, and the K/M/TN is just barely more complicated than those.  

I don't need a checklist to tell me when to turn on things like the carb heat.  If I need it, I turn it on.

I do have memory joggers and flows to help me if I'm getting rusty.  Basically, I use GUMP-FL for every phase of flight: taxi, takeoff, climb, cruise, descent, landing, and after landing.  Everything gets checked and is "as required" depending on the phase of flight.

-Gas (tank and pump)

-Undercarriage

-Mixture

-Prop

-Flaps (cowl and wing)

-Lights (regular and transponder)

Works for everything from a J-3 to a 58 Baron.

[Raptor05121]

7 hours ago, Marauder said:

If you need them laminated, let me know. I bought one of those laminating machines a while back.  

Can I take you up on your offer?

[Marauder]

Can I take you up on your offer?

Sure. I am always looking to laminate stuff. Wife thought I was nuts for buying it.


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[Yetti]

"If you are too fast on approach, you probably forgot the gear."   I'd have to look again, but the little placard for landing is 3 or 4 things.

[Jim Peace]

9 hours ago, 201er said:

give a glimpse at the kind of pilot that would takeoff with a tailwind at high DA at high weight intentionally 

I guess you never had to earn living operating in and out of one way airports.....Ever been to Aspen?  The hundreds of times I flew in and out of there I guess I was unsafe...I should have told the boss to stay at home and still pay me of course...........

Oh and the 1000 hours of flying banners with no DG in the airplane probably made me unsafe as well..........

Maybe I should just stick to making 90 degrees bank turns from base to final......

[Mooneymite]

9 hours ago, Andy95W said:

I'm with Gus.  Seriously, my M20C is just barely more complicated than a C-172.  The only real differences are gear, prop, and cowl flaps.  An M20E/F/J/R is just barely more complicated than mine, and the K/M/TN is just barely more complicated than those.  

Andy, actually I am a "checklist guy".  I was beaten up in the Navy, I matured at the airlines and post-airline am still employed "doing checklists".  I believe in checklists and I use them both at work and in my Mooney.  Yes, flows work and are great for getting everything done, but they work differently than a checklist.  Flows and checklists work together, not in lieu of one another in the operations I'm familiar with.

My comment about "Gear Down....everything else is a detail" was a humorous attempt to emphasize that "some items" are killers and some are details, but I believe in checklists.

The only thing that I've noticed is that when things "get crazy", the same thing that is making you forget to put down the gear is also making you forget to do the checklist!

Checklists and landing gear have got to be habitual, disciplined and ingrained.

YMMV

[Marauder]

Andy, actually I am a "checklist guy".  I was beaten up in the Navy, I matured at the airlines and post-airline am still employed "doing checklists".  I believe in checklists and I use them both at work and in my Mooney.  Yes, flows work and are great for getting everything done, but they work differently than a checklist.  Flows and checklists work together, not in lieu of one another in the operations I'm familiar with.
My comment about "Gear Down....everything else is a detail" was a humorous attempt to emphasize that "some items" are killers and some are details, but I believe in checklists.
The only thing that I've noticed is that when things "get crazy", the same thing that is making you forget to put down the gear is also making you forget to do the checklist!
Checklists and landing gear have got to be habitual, disciplined and ingrained.
YMMV

I knew you were joking big guy. I did my primary at a 141 school and the checklist usage was drilled into me. When the "flow" technique was added to our vocabulary I incorporated it into my single pilot CRM. I find the flow technique complements the usage of checklists as you suggest.

I am however still one of those, there pilots who does a "gear down & locked" call on final. Just a little reminder for myself.


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