ATC Procedure for Overtaking IFR Traffic

[201er]

A post in another topic reminded me something I've been wondering about. Is there a standard procedure for ATC when one aircraft is overtaking another aircraft at same altitude? How do they decide who to climb/descend? It seems that the faster plane gets priority but is that fair? Sometimes it can lead to a silly situation where the slow plane picks up speed while descending. What are the procedures and how best to deal with them?

[MB65E]

I been told a few times to turn right 45° for a few minutes for traffic overtaking. Then back on track on my original course. Followed by "please reduce speed" Wait a minute, you've spun me for traffic and now have me slowing fr te traffic that passed me? What the heck!! Just venting.

I don't think they think that far ahead. They can only plan so far in front of them before the next sector. They have their protocols and do well with what they see. 

-Matt

[peevee]

It's a first come, first serve system. In a perfect world that's how it would run. In reality no situation is the same and whatever is the least amount of work for the three people involved is what's going to happen. Barring other traffic I'd take the slow guy down or climb the fast guy a thousand feet. 

[Danb]

Peeve that generally seems what occurs especially on a busy route like V-1.

[ArtVandelay]

It would be much easier to ask one of the planes to go off airway, when climbing or descending I have to changing engine settings, reset trim, etc, as oppose to turn 10 degrees. If asked to change altitude, I volunteer to change heading, for /G it's trivial to do and then get back on course. I only change altitude for weather.

[peevee]

17 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

It would be much easier to ask one of the planes to go off airway, when climbing or descending I have to changing engine settings, reset trim, etc, as oppose to turn 10 degrees. If asked to change altitude, I volunteer to change heading, for /G it's trivial to do and then get back on course. I only change altitude for weather.

90%+ an airliner will take an altitude change over a vector. 

So, again, every situation is different and there is no way to answer the question. 

 

Below fl180 visual separation is yet another option. 

 

If I have time I might ask. I may not have time or be in the mood or have fifteen other higher duty priorities to worry about and a frequency to control. 

Edited December 15, 2016 by peevee

[peevee]

The edct can be for a lot of things. If it's a gdp it's like a chainsaw. It finds you a time at the threshold but that doesn't mean you can land stacked, you still have to be fit into the overhead stream. That still takes finesse. 

Mostly what I'm reading is a bunch of people struggling to grasp that they're not the only airplane in the sky. 

 

LA center runs a staggered feed to tracon. You'll get sequenced 350+ miles out no matter which stream you're on, bce, drk, or pgs

 

The difference between a m20c and a m20k is not enough to even get most enough controllers attention. They're essentially the same. Now the difference between  a  eclipse jet and a 757 both trying to occupy FL 360, that gets it. 

Edited December 15, 2016 by peevee

[peevee]

3 minutes ago, daver328 said:

My favorite is when "some United chick" going into ORD gets on Chicago Center and tries to sharp shoot the controller over being assigned a heading! Lol!!

"United, you can fly that heading or I can give you holding instructions over South Bend?"

Brings a smile to my face!

It doesn't get real until the chief pilot makes the crew send a personalized, hand written apology. 

It has happened. 

 

ORD is a disaster because Minnie center feeds it. Lol

Edited December 15, 2016 by peevee

[peevee]

42 minutes ago, daver328 said:

 

The question is ... Is there a standard procedure?

also ... is that correct, there's really only two designators for Mooneys, normal and turbo? 

I have answered that. Twice. It's first come, first serve. The only rule is 5 miles and a thousand feet. It's my discretion beyond that. 

Yes. And it doesn't matter. You could have one and it wouldn't matter. 

 

The faa order says safe, orderly expeditious, pick two I guess.  UT that's one guy's opinion and I'm in a shit mood tonight, it'll be different tomorrow. 

Edited December 15, 2016 by peevee

[cnoe]

I'm in a shit mood tonight, it'll be different tomorrow. 

We've noticed that before.

Thanks for the insight.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[peevee]

9 hours ago, cnoe said:

 

We've noticed that before.

Thanks for the insight.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Something about last day on vacation and having to return to the US and  cold and snow today. And flying Southwest. 

 

My  view right now

Edited December 15, 2016 by peevee

[peevee]

My view in 5 hours 

[kmyfm20s]

Flying the low altitude TEC routes in California with many slower training aircraft in front of me I have seen many senerios. I've had slower planes vectors off the airway until I've passed, higher altitude given to me to pass and adjacent airways given to me. I have also been told to just slow down when the controller was grumpy:) The last senerio is the worst!

[peevee]

Speed control is a wonderful tool if applied correctly. 

[ArtVandelay]

I've been ask to fly at 80knots for slower traffic, I've heard of best speed, but not worst speed?!

[Yooper Rocketman]

If you understand the separations, it seems like a no brainer.  I will gladly take 1K up or down over 5 miles vertical separation.

Tom

[peevee]

8 hours ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

If you understand the separations, it seems like a no brainer.  I will gladly take 1K up or down over 5 miles vertical separation.

Tom

it's rarely that you need 5 more miles. traffic usually isn't wired and you already have a mile or three and just need a couple more.

[cbarry]

91.113: (f) Overtaking. Each aircraft that is being overtaken has the right-of-way and each pilot of an overtaking aircraft shall alter course to the right to pass well clear.

[peevee]

33 minutes ago, cbarry said:

91.113: (f) Overtaking. Each aircraft that is being overtaken has the right-of-way and each pilot of an overtaking aircraft shall alter course to the right to pass well clear.

Part 91 right of way rules have nothing to do with the 7110.65

[cbarry]

Then maybe the question should be:. How does ATC handle overtaking traffic under a clearance in controlled airspace v how overtaking aircraft, on a flight plan, are advised in uncontrolled airspace?Even aircraft in uncontrolled airspace on an IFR flight still may be on advisory service or providing position reporting and 91.113 (f) does in fact apply to VFR and IFR traffic.  

[peevee]

21 minutes ago, cbarry said:

Then maybe the question should be:. How does ATC handle overtaking traffic under a clearance in controlled airspace v how overtaking aircraft, on a flight plan, are advised in uncontrolled airspace?Even aircraft in uncontrolled airspace on an IFR flight still may be on advisory service or providing position reporting and 91.113 (f) does in fact apply to VFR and IFR traffic.  

And yet 91.113 doesn't exist to the controller. If given an advisory I'm going to go with its on you to decide how to comply. 

[carusoam]

Thread challenge...

1) The guy asking the question isn't an air traffic controller, and potentially doesn't know the detail of the answer to ask the question in the best way...

2) The guy giving the answer has the insider knowledge and is being discrete....

3) If the slow guy is on an IR flight plan, the Mooney is going to want to go over, under or around...

4) If the slow guy isn't on an IR flight plan, the Mooney is +/- 500' already as he goes by...

5) IMC adds to the challenge as it wold be difficult to see the slow guy.

 

The power of MS working...

Best regards,

-a-

[cbarry]

I bet 91.113 will surface as being in existence and used as reasoning by ATC/Advisory services if an overtaking aircraft collides with another in VMC while either under ATC or advisory services.

[Hank]

4 hours ago, cbarry said:

I bet 91.113 will surface as being in existence and used as reasoning by ATC/Advisory services if an overtaking aircraft collides with another in VMC while either under ATC or advisory services.

In VMC, separation is up to the PIC, regardless of flight plan status, advisories,flight following, etc. ATC may be given a share of the blame by the NTSB, as in last year's collision between a fighter jet on long practice approach and a C-152 in SC. In IMC on a flight plan, separation services are provided for you; in VMC, you provide your own separation.

[cbarry]

Hank, yes sir I realize that.  What I'm saying is:  Because it's up to the PIC in VMC to see and avoid, even if course deviation has been allowed  and or clearance has been given and a  collision occurs, then Advisory/ATC will lean on 91.113.  Thus, 91.113 exists as simply  one regulation to provide guidance on how to address the original question pondered.  As many of us have experienced, avoidance of overtaking traffic is handled by change of altitude, speed and /or course.  In addition, I'd be careful about relying on Advisory/ATC solely while in IMC (I say solely only because we as pilots sometimes relax in IMC believing we are somehow being protected better by Advisory). How can they confirm you're in IMC?  As good as they are, they can only rely on an estimate  of the weather conditions or with the pilot reporting they're in IMC.  You could be in an out of IMC and even in an area the weather is calling VMC.