Garmin G5 Review

[John]

Will the G5 connect with a Garmin 400 W. 

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, John...

Great question for Trek.  He is our Garmin guy.

Best regards,

-a-

Edited February 24, 2017 by carusoam

[NotarPilot]

10 hours ago, John said:

Will the G5 connect with a Garmin 400 W. 

I'm going to say yes being that the 400W is just a 430W without the comms, right? I think it's advertised as being compatible with the GNS/GTN product line and shhhh, the IFD line, but don't ask me how I know this.

[Godfather]

I wonder if they have any plans for a flush mount.  I'd like to keep everything on the left side as flush as possible. 

[air cooled dad]

Just picked mine up from the avionics shop!  Pretty nice so far.  

Jason

[rkellykyle]

I've only made a few flights with my newly installed G5, but sometimes the ground track is displayed across the top and sometimes it's not. When not displayed, the only options displayed when the knob is depressed are "back" and "altitude." There's no information about this in the skimpy documentation provided. Anyone have any insight?

[LANCECASPER]

3 hours ago, rkellykyle said:

I've only made a few flights with my newly installed G5, but sometimes the ground track is displayed across the top and sometimes it's not. When not displayed, the only options displayed when the knob is depressed are "back" and "altitude." There's no information about this in the skimpy documentation provided. Anyone have any insight?

If you are losing TRK you are losing your GPS signal I am guessing. 

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard RKelly,

+1 on finding the GPS source may be helpful. The G5 installation requires, in our certified planes, a GPS source for best accuracy...

At least that is how I understand it from a couple of threads around here regarding the G5.

Best regards,

-a-

[LANCECASPER]

The G5 has a built in GPS and even a portable GPS antenna under the glareshield may be all you need.

[rkellykyle]

I know the avionics shop installed the aux GPS antenna under the panel, but I determined today that if the G5 boots up before the panel-mounted GPS (it's a CNX80), you get no track info. Since it's wired to the master switch, it comes on with the master. If I turn the G5 off, then start the engine and turn on the avionics master, THEN turn on the G5, I consistently get track info. I'm not sure if the install manual prescribes this setup or if the shop arbitrarily chose it on their own, but I don't consider it ideal.

[carusoam]

You are in a post modern challenge with that situation, RK...

Most Mooney's have the panel instruments unpowered until after engine start.  This avoids transient electrical issues that come with high loads and the alternator coming on line...

Really new Mooneys have their electronics on for start because the engine instruments are electric.

You want to build a strategy for your plane. Specifically how to get power to that instrument if the master switch croaks.  Make sure you have a good way to be notified if the alternator stops producing power, or the battery starts discharging, that kind of thing.

Look into how instrument panels are wired. they have a back-up power plan if the switch fails.

Did your instrument installer give you any of these details? They probably have a plan, but didn't make it clear to you...

PP thoughts only, not an instrument guy...

Best regards,

-a-

Edited May 12, 2017 by carusoam

[AaronDC8402]

On 5/11/2017 at 10:55 PM, rkellykyle said:

I know the avionics shop installed the aux GPS antenna under the panel, but I determined today that if the G5 boots up before the panel-mounted GPS (it's a CNX80), you get no track info. Since it's wired to the master switch, it comes on with the master. If I turn the G5 off, then start the engine and turn on the avionics master, THEN turn on the G5, I consistently get track info. I'm not sure if the install manual prescribes this setup or if the shop arbitrarily chose it on their own, but I don't consider it ideal.

We also have a CNX80 and G5. G5 comes on with master, and CNX comes on with avionics switch. The shop that did the install said the G5 is supposed to be wired to the master per Garmin instructions. I've never seen the issue you're describing. I'll be on the look out for it now though.

[glenn reynolds]

IF your a flight into known Icing (FIKI) the G5 may NOT be approved.  I just purchased a G5 and read the install manual only to find it says "STC not approved for FIKI aircraft" which is a bummer as I'm FIKI.  I'm doing more research to determine what my options are but I saw this information ONLY in the install manual.  It maybe that the G5 can't be primary in FIKI aircraft, and it maybe legal as standby, or it maybe legal, but not with the stc.  

This thread has a lot of discussion about installed price so here is my two cents:  Pacific Coast Avionics publishes a catalog with installed prices listed.  They quoted ten hours to install the G5.  this included removing vacuum system, blanking vacuum accessory pad, power, ground and gps intertie with gps (otherwise you need to install an antenna) and pitot  splice in.  Seemed fair if not cheap.  There is no question that if you bundle it with other work the labor goes down as the panel is open etc.  

[Mark89114]

17 hours ago, glenn reynolds said:

IF your a flight into known Icing (FIKI) the G5 may NOT be approved.  I just purchased a G5 and read the install manual only to find it says "STC not approved for FIKI aircraft" which is a bummer as I'm FIKI.  I'm doing more research to determine what my options are but I saw this information ONLY in the install manual.  It maybe that the G5 can't be primary in FIKI aircraft, and it maybe legal as standby, or it maybe legal, but not with the stc.  

This thread has a lot of discussion about installed price so here is my two cents:  Pacific Coast Avionics publishes a catalog with installed prices listed.  They quoted ten hours to install the G5.  this included removing vacuum system, blanking vacuum accessory pad, power, ground and gps intertie with gps (otherwise you need to install an antenna) and pitot  splice in.  Seemed fair if not cheap.  There is no question that if you bundle it with other work the labor goes down as the panel is open etc.  

The details are in the fine print....I was in the same boat and the FIKI was a big caveat, don't understand why.  The other issue is the G5 is not certified as a backup to the Aspen or G500 which require a backup per their installation requirements.  Again don't ask me why.  As someone mentioned the progress on this electronic front is going pretty quickly for the aviation world anyway.  I am sticking with my KI-256 and associated bits and pieces until the water is a little clearer and hopefully cheaper.

 

[Marauder]

The details are in the fine print....I was in the same boat and the FIKI was a big caveat, don't understand why.  The other issue is the G5 is not certified as a backup to the Aspen or G500 which require a backup per their installation requirements.  Again don't ask me why.  As someone mentioned the progress on this electronic front is going pretty quickly for the aviation world anyway.  I am sticking with my KI-256 and associated bits and pieces until the water is a little clearer and hopefully cheaper.
 

It's all about the certifications completed. The G5 isn't certified for a backup to an Aspen or G500 because it has not been tested and certified under the TSO to act as a backup. Trek from Garmin was on this forum and informed of this. Jim Keeth of L-3 provided the specific TSO requirements that a system would need to pass to be certified as a backup.

The main reason is a G5 relies on pitot static input in conjunction with the electronic AHRS to determine attitude. Since it shares the same pitot static system as an Aspen and G500 if there is a failure in that system, the unit needs to perform to a degraded level without pitot static input. The L-3 ESI-500 will as well as the Sandia unit.

I suspect a FIKI plane has a TSO around the pitot system that may be the reason behind the G5 not being certified to be used.


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[LANCECASPER]

20 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

It's all about the certifications completed. The G5 isn't certified for a backup to an Aspen or G500 because it has not been tested and certified under the TSO to act as a backup. Trek from Garmin was on this forum and informed of this. Jim Keeth of L-3 provided the specific TSO requirements that a system would need to pass to be certified as a backup.

The main reason is a G5 relies on pitot static input in conjunction with the electronic AHRS to determine attitude. Since it shares the same pitot static system as an Aspen and G500 if there is a failure in that system, the unit needs to perform to a degraded level without pitot static input. The L-3 ESI-500 will as well as the Sandia unit.

I suspect a FIKI plane has a TSO around the pitot system that may be the reason behind the G5 not being certified to be used.


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On some things the FAA goes way overboard, but I agree with them on this. If there is one point of failure and it takes out your primary and your backup, that's not good. A glass upgrade is a great thing but figure into the budget a proper certified back-up. You're looking for redundancy.

Don't look for a shop that slides on this issue and puts in the G5 when Garmin says it is not certified as a backup and tells you the reasons why. Things are changing so fast that even a local FSDO may let you slide, not completely understanding the implications of what they are signing off on. They won't be trying to keep the airplane straight and level in case of a single point failure. 

I see the G5 as a great turn coordinator replacement, giving you a lot more for a relatively small amount, or even an attitude replacement for a vacuum attitude indicator that's not interfaced with an autopilot. But since Garmin doesn't see it as a backup, and they basically do the FAA certification, I don't either. Pony up for the L-3 ESI-500 or a Mid-Continent Lifesaver Gyro. Use the AHRS on your portable to break the tie in case one fails.

[Mark89114]

Over on beechtalk (sorry everybody) the reason stated by someone there who seemed reasonably knowledgeable is that it more had to do with large pulses of energy (they had a fancy word for it, I assumed they meant lightning strikes) and the G5 wasn't tested but the L-3 ESI-500 was.  I will try to find the reference.  Still doesn't make sense that you can use as a primary with no redunancy.  I don't know what pitot-static has to do with G5 attitude references except for it was built that way and their must be a reason garmin went with that logic.  

[Godfather]

29 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

On some things the FAA goes way overboard, but I agree with them on this. If there is one point of failure and it takes out your primary and your backup, that's not good. A glass upgrade is a great thing but figure into the budget a proper certified back-up. You're looking for redundancy.

Don't look for a shop that slides on this issue and puts in the G5 when Garmin says it is not certified as a backup and tells you the reasons why. Things are changing so fast that even a local FSDO may let you slide, not completely understanding the implications of what they are signing off on. They won't be trying to keep the airplane straight and level in case of a single point failure. 

I see the G5 as a great turn coordinator replacement, giving you a lot more for a relatively small amount, or even an attitude replacement for a vacuum attitude indicator that's not interfaced with an autopilot. But since Garmin doesn't see it as a backup, and they basically do the FAA certification, I don't either. Pony up for the L-3 ESI-500 or a Mid-Continent Lifesaver Gyro. Use the AHRS on your portable to break the tie in case one fails.

The Garmin does not have a single point of failure.  You can run the unit disconnected from the P/S system with slightly reduced accuracy. The FAA lowered the requirements for primary replacements to encourage cheaper glass replacements in older aircraft.   The Garmin rep said the FAA did not (and probably won't) reduce the TSO requirements for the backup instruments. 

10 minutes ago, Mark89114 said:

Over on beechtalk (sorry everybody) the reason stated by someone there who seemed reasonably knowledgeable is that it more had to do with large pulses of energy (they had a fancy word for it, I assumed they meant lightning strikes) and the G5 wasn't tested but the L-3 ESI-500 was.  I will try to find the reference.  Still doesn't make sense that you can use as a primary with no redunancy.  I don't know what pitot-static has to do with G5 attitude references except for it was built that way and their must be a reason garmin went with that logic.  

In the end the G5 was not tested to the same TSO levels because Garmin did not want to incur the cost to do so.  However, it might make it that much harder for them to have any type of certified AP interface because of that. 

[kortopates]

...  Still doesn't make sense that you can use as a primary with no redunancy. ...

When used as Primary to replace your AI, you'll have the "redundancy" of IAS, Turn Bank, DG, and Alt just like you always had with a 6-pack. Remember it's only primary for Attitude. But if you use it as a backup for an EFIS system like an Aspen or especially a G500 you won't have any redundancy to support the G5 if you loose it.
Consider the Achilles heal of the Aspen, air-data, and say you loose the pitot ram air because because your pitot heat fails or any number of reasons as simple as a break in the line. This brings down the entire Aspen, multiple Aspens doesn't help either. Now you don't have a backup EFIS certified to degrade to an acceptable performance level with a loss of pitot air data. Now what?
Stick to something that was engineered to meet the requirements of how you intend to use it. They're really not silly requirements.


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[Godfather]

Just now, kortopates said:

When used as Primary to replace your AI, you'll have the "redundancy" of IAS, Turn Bank, DG, and Alt just like you always had with a 6-pack. Remember it's only primary for Attitude. But if you use it as a backup for an EFIS system like an Aspen or especially a G500 you won't have any redundancy to support the G5 if you loose it.
Consider the Achilles heal of the Aspen, air-data, and say you loose the pitot ram air because because your pitot heat fails or any number of reasons as simple as a break in the line. This brings down the entire Aspen, multiple Aspens doesn't help either. Now you don't have a backup EFIS certified to degrade to an acceptable performance level with a loss of pitot air data. Now what?
Stick to something that was engineered to meet the requirements of how you intend to use it. They're really not silly requirements.


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I agree but still believe the G5 is the perfect single Aspen display backup for shoppers on a budget. 

Funny thing is I would have no problem with the legal limitations if they required a backup AI with every G5 install. It's the good enough for primary but not to backup/copilot instruments/etc. 

 

[Marauder]

I agree but still believe the G5 is the perfect single Aspen display backup for shoppers on a budget. 
Funny thing is I would have no problem with the legal limitations if they required a backup AI with every G5 install. It's the good enough for primary but not to backup/copilot instruments/etc. 
 

Unfortunately it isn't. Trust me, I didn't want to spend $6k for a backup. The TSO for the ESI to act as a backup was written primarily to allow the degraded ESI-500 AHRS (sans the pitot static) to perform at the same performance level as a standard mechanical AI. The G5 uses the same pitot static input as the ESI. The difference being the ESI went through the additional testing for this particular TSO., the Garmin unit didn't.

The market for a backup AI is small relative to the market opportunity to act as a primary in a 6 pack equipped plane. Garmin was smart, don't spend a lot of certification dollars on a niche market. If they went through the certification and increased the price to $5k, how many would buy it as a primary only.


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[Browncbr1]

I think they didn't waste testing dollars because their plan is to get the G5HSI A/P certified and then you have your backup AI one button click away.  If AP out is certified at osh, then I'm buying

[LANCECASPER]

On 5/25/2017 at 8:10 PM, Browncbr1 said:

I think they didn't waste testing dollars because their plan is to get the G5HSI A/P certified and then you have your backup AI one button click away.  If AP out is certified at osh, then I'm buying

That would be nice and they would sell a ton of them this year if that happens. But I think the odds are much greater that you'll see a little Richard Simmons Jr. running around than for the G5 to be A/P certified by Oshkosh 2017. Ain't gonna happen. I hope I'm wrong.

[smccray]

15 hours ago, Godfather said:

I agree but still believe the G5 is the perfect single Aspen display backup for shoppers on a budget. 

Funny thing is I would have no problem with the legal limitations if they required a backup AI with every G5 install. It's the good enough for primary but not to backup/copilot instruments/etc. 

 

I would accept that limitation in a heartbeat if the FAA allowed me to connect the G5 to the king 150 autopilot.  Let the altitude bug trigger the alt pre-select on the 150, even if it doesn't give me vertical speed control.

 

[Godfather]

8 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

That would be nice and they would sell a ton of them this year if that happens. But I think the odds are much greater that you'll see a little Richard Simmons Jr. running around than for the G5 to be A/P certified by Oshkosh 2017. Ain't gonna happen. I hope I'm wrong.

Garmin sent out an email about a week ago answering some questions. Basically they said that because the G5 (AI and HSI) is not TSO certified there would be huge headwinds from the FAA for even a heading bug output.  A full AP system is 1-2 years out minimum (my guess).