Looking to buy my first plane and need some advice

[dlthig]

Chris,

     I assume that you checked the spreadsheets in the download section here. George and some of the others have posted them and the fixed costs listed should be fairly close to what you could expect. One thing to realize is that the hours you put on the engine will directly correlate to reducing your selling price, if you sell it. If you think that you'll fly 100+ hours annually, go for it. If you don't think that you'll be that busy, I'd stop and pause. Also, a way to reduce your rental expense is to fly what you need to get the job done. A C-150 will build time just like a new C-172. Alternatively, find an owner that doesn't use his airplane too much and see if you can rent it. Go to AOPA's vREF or another calculator to estimate operating expenses and you'll know about what you should pay. Good luck with your decision. Owning an airplane is great, but can get ugly in a hurry.

[cnoe]

I'm enjoying reading this thread immensely! I think Andy's a hoot and I truly appreciate his temperament and I bet you're a blast to hang out with, seriously. Reminds me of another guy who joined our group on a big dive-training trip to Florida in the '90s. We ended up at a high-end strip club in Lauderdale one night and as long as "Jim" was nearby the ladies were quite entertaining, but the minute, no the second he left the club it was like the remainder of our group contracted leprosy. LOL! Those girls could sense who had money and who did not like a bloodhound senses escaped convicts!

Something must be wrong with me 'cause I actually LIKE working on my plane. I don't necessarily do it to beat my mechanic out of a few bucks but neither could I afford toss him my keys and checkbook on a regular basis. I'm also not fond of over-paying for parts. A 50% markup plus $20 shipping on your non-stock air filter isn't what I pay, and paying well over $500 to replace a $250 tire&tube isn't part of my maintenance plan either. But I have no resentment for those who can afford this approach and choose to pursue it.

I certainly mean no disrespect but my ownership experience has been much more positive than Andy's. I enjoy flying and working on my plane, and purchasing it was a decision based more on convenience and emotion than economics. I'll say for the OP's sake that I couldn't do what I do sans a hangar and would not be inclined to own a nice plane on a tie-down only. YMMV.


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[gsxrpilot]

I recently sold an M20C that I'd owned and flew for 2 years, 3 months and 400 hours.

Fuel costs were never over $40 hr.
Both annuals were high as I did quite a bit of upgrading and improvements $4000 each. $20 hr.
Insurance was $1600 first year and $800 the second. $6 hr.
Hangar rent $225/month x27 months. $15 hr.
Other misc maintenance including oil changes, two flat tires, etc. $5 hr.
Upgrades - engine monitor, ADSB out, new control wheels/shafts. $20 hr.

Total hourly costs over 400 hours = $106 hour.

Purchase $48K, sold $50K

Satisfaction of owning an airplane = Priceless

[KLRDMD]

9 hours ago, Ranger_Chris61 said:

Except the fixed cost must be paid even if I don't fly at all, and is why they need to be calculated over a year and not just the 180 hours of flying. It would be nice to not have to pay for fixed costs by not flying but they still exist.

As one that has owned 14 airplanes in my flying career and had a $25k annual on an airplane that had an extensive ($10k) pre-buy by the guru of that aircraft type and had the annual done by the same individual - listen to Andy. I see a lot of fantasy and justification by the OP that will be quite eye opening once the reality and expense of aircraft ownership sets in.

Ownership is more expensive than renting in 99% of cases and the OP is not the 1% exception. You own for pride of ownership, immediate and absolute availability of the airplane, known maintenance and condition or to fly an airplane that isn't readily available on the rental line. 

YOU DO NOT OWN AN AIRPLANE TO SAVE MONEY OVER RENTING !!!

[Andy95W]

29 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

You own for pride of ownership, immediate and absolute availability of the airplane, known maintenance and condition or to fly an airplane that isn't readily available on the rental line. 

+1, and also:

-you like working on it

-you have friends at your airport and like helping them work on their airplanes

-you have a fridge at your hangar and you like just relaxing on a nice evening with a beer

There are a lot of things to enjoy about being an airplane owner, but financially justifying the expense isn't one of them.

(24 year airplane owner)

[carusoam]

I own a Mooney because renting a Mooney isn't available to go where I want to go, when I want to go there.

Coming back when I feel like it, is freedom...

Same logic applies to Corvettes and various other things...  When can you wake up  go down stares and rent a Vette to go out for a spirited ride?

Buy a plane because you want to own one...

Buy a Mooney because you want a fast and efficient and safe bird, relatively speaking of course...

Best regards,

-a-

[Raptor05121]

On 11/25/2016 at 8:11 PM, bonal said:

Interesting comment about the carburetor I can see if it's the 20 less HP but if it's a reliability concern you should not worry,  those simple carbs are stone reliable and very easy to start and deliver very consistent performance. In fact I think I have read lots of threads here having something to do with a fuel injection problem and can't recall many if any about a problem with the carburetor. There might have been one. A M20C is a fine airplane that can give you a lot of bang for the buck just ask any of us C owners. Or former C owners.

 

I mirror what bonal says. I'm 25 and grew up with EFI everything. I have a carb'ed four wheeler and another that is FI. The carb'ed one ALWAYS gives us problems starting after a week of inactivity. The FI one can sit a year and fire right up. My dad had a 67 F-100 with a carb'ed 302 that was a PITA to start. My 98 F-150 is FI and starts fine. The Cherokee 180 and Cessna 152 I learned to fly, I scrubbed so many flights due to non-starts. One of them, I left the plane a good 2 hour drive away! So naturally I dislike carburators. They aren't as efficient or precise and use less science and more magic to start.

Except my M20C. It starts like my FI truck. Fires on the second blade, everytime. Yeah it wont run LOP efficiently, but its a cheap and economical engine.

[Danb]

On 11/23/2016 at 11:05 PM, Ranger_Chris61 said:

Have not been on in a few days but have read through peoples posts.

 

 

 

I had already planed for 15%-20% no surprise there and had planed to get a PPI in all cases simple to make sure that it is in good working condition and the obvious fact could save thousands. I also agree with you on old electronics and the potential for failure, but there is not much you can do about it beyond making sure the person doing the PPI does a good job. As for upgrades my understanding from what I have seen here and else where that the only items that you will get your money back on, and could potential increase the value, is doing the interior and a fresh coat of paint. If any one has suggestions on upgrades that they have found do add value or at least don't lose value significantly I am welcome to hear suggestions. As for parking I am planning for a basic tie down as around where I live here its about $50 a month, though would like to hear peoples experience with the difference in maintenance and insurance costs with getting a hanger and if they difference is worth the added cost. As for being in a rush, the way I see it it is a bit of a catch 22, on the one hand the sooner I get my own the sooner I can save some money on my flight training but it would potential mean having to settle for something that is not ideal. On the other hand I wait for the right plane that is 100% of what I am looking for but end up spending more by continuing to rent. So it is a little frustrating trying to balance the two.

 

Why that does sound nice I am shying away from Cs due to the the fact they are not fuel injected.

 

Two other questions that came up in the last few days that I was wondering about. The first is what have been people's experiences been with renting out their mooneys? I was speaking with a financial planner and one of the things he mentioned was the idea of renting it out to help bring in income to offset costs and was wondering what people have found they could get. The second is in my search I have found a fair number of potentials that lack a six pack instrument arrangement and I was wondering what it typically cost to get a instrument panel redone.

Do yourself a favor and don't listen to financial planners regarding aviation 

[Danb]

On 11/27/2016 at 2:37 AM, AndyFromCB said:

How is $530 a month 72 cents an hour? That's 6359 a year? Divided by 180 hours (if you fly that much first year), it's $35 an hour, not 72 cents. And more like 63 an hour if you fly as much as most people who can afford to make this payment do (100 a year or so).

Just for shits and giggles take a look at this invoice if you need an eye opener. This was not any sort of a giant annual, just lots of little things here and there (and was proceeded by about $15K worth of work just a few months before). Most airplanes don't get this kind of open checkbook maintenance, especially ones for sale so the deferred maintenance will catch up with you, the new owner.

http://www.riskmt.com/n767rd/other/Annual2012.pdf

You're not building any equity, it's a depreciating asset. And you're maintaining a 500K aircraft with new parts priced correspondingly. 

Holy shit

[Ranger_Chris61]

Sorry for not checking back on this in a little while was away prepping for a instrument stage check. I have been trying to keep a watch on listings for Mooneys and after seeing on sell in less than 24 hours I am thinking I need to have everything ready to go so that if I see one I can move on it quickly. I did look through the download section as dlthig suggested, had not noticed there was one until they pointed it out so thank you for that, and after playing with them using what I would consider the upper end of my budget and was running about $90-$100 depending on the calculator. Would love to know if that is in the same ball park as what other people have found their Mooneys run at.

[Raptor05121]

I ballpark my M20C at $100/hr, give or take a few bucks.

Have you picked out a model you're interested in?

[KLRDMD]

7 hours ago, Raptor05121 said:

I ballpark my M20C at $100/hr, give or take a few bucks.

A VERY rough ballpark based on 175 hours per year (I think I'll do 200+, the average pilot flies about 35 hours/year) is pretty close to $100/hr for my 231 too. That includes everything, insurance at 1MM smooth, hangar, annual, fuel, oil, maintenance. etc. - but does not include reserves and I do not have a note on the airplane. If you have a note on the airplane or if you can't write a check for an engine overhaul tomorrow, you'll need to add those figures into your hourly rate.

[ArtVandelay]

6 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

A VERY rough ballpark based on 175 hours per year (I think I'll do 200+, the average pilot flies about 35 hours/year) is pretty close to $100/hr for my 231 too. That includes everything, insurance at 1MM smooth, hangar, annual, fuel, oil, maintenance. etc. - but does not include reserves and I do not have a note on the airplane. If you have a note on the airplane or if you can't write a check for an engine overhaul tomorrow, you'll need to add those figures into your hourly rate.

Ditto, and it doesn't include upgrades and other major repairs like tank reseals...and the first year of ownership usually is more expensive, have extra cash in reserve after you buy the plane.

[KLRDMD]

11 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

A VERY rough ballpark based on 175 hours per year (I think I'll do 200+, the average pilot flies about 35 hours/year) is pretty close to $100/hr for my 231 too. That includes everything, insurance at 1MM smooth, hangar, annual, fuel, oil, scheduled maintenance, etc. - but does not include reserves and I do not have a note on the airplane. If you have a note on the airplane or if you can't write a check for an engine overhaul tomorrow, you'll need to add those figures into your hourly rate.

Amortizing an engine reserve if you can't write a check for a new engine (and I'm assuming you can't if you're financing the airplane, I could be wrong of course) requires a lot more hourly amount than it first seems.

i just looked at Corona Engine's web site. They list an overhaul for a 200 HP Lycoming IO-360 as in Mooney E & J models at $24,400. Add 50% for overhauling all the accessories, removal and re-installation of the engine and fixing other issues found during the process (engine mounts that are no longer airworthy, etc.) and you're at $36,600. Now, assuming you bought an airplane with a mid time engine and assuming it makes TBO (both Lycoming and Continental say a specific number of hours OR 12 years) amortizing a $36,600 expense over the remaining 1,000 hours is $36+/hr. And then we need to overhaul the prop too so let's call it $40/hr plus the previously mentioned $100/hr for just the basics.

If you fly 100 hours a year or more and if nothing ever breaks or requires unscheduled maintenance, that's $140/hour.  Let's add the note payment of $6,000 per year or $60 per flight hour assuming you fly 100 hours a year. Now you're at $200 an hour IF NOTHING BREAKS or if you never have a single dollar of unscheduled maintenance.

How does that $150/hr rental sound now ?

You don't buy an airplane to save money over renting !

[Yetti]

being more realistic if the cam is good.  4 new cylinders are 8k so just top it.  Or better yet have a new cylinder then start rotating in overhaul cylinders at 500 a piece.  Engine mounts are 500.   If you do the mags one year at 500 each and then the engine needs topping 2 years later not so bad.  The costs can be amortized over several years.  I think the best thing to do is have a continuous maintenance plan. 

[Ranger_Chris61]

On 12/2/2016 at 0:00 PM, Raptor05121 said:

I ballpark my M20C at $100/hr, give or take a few bucks.

Have you picked out a model you're interested in?

Not 100%, would prefer E or later, but would not rule out a C for the right price that has a good chunk of what I am looking for feature wise.

[Ranger_Chris61]

10 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

Amortizing an engine reserve if you can't write a check for a new engine (and I'm assuming you can't if you're financing the airplane, I could be wrong of course) requires a lot more hourly amount than it first seems.

i just looked at Corona Engine's web site. They list an overhaul for a 200 HP Lycoming IO-360 as in Mooney E & J models at $24,400. Add 50% for overhauling all the accessories, removal and re-installation of the engine and fixing other issues found during the process (engine mounts that are no longer airworthy, etc.) and you're at $36,600. Now, assuming you bought an airplane with a mid time engine and assuming it makes TBO (both Lycoming and Continental say a specific number of hours OR 12 years) amortizing a $36,600 expense over the remaining 1,000 hours is $36+/hr. And then we need to overhaul the prop too so let's call it $40/hr plus the previously mentioned $100/hr for just the basics.

If you fly 100 hours a year or more and if nothing ever breaks or requires unscheduled maintenance, that's $140/hour.  Let's add the note payment of $6,000 per year or $60 per flight hour assuming you fly 100 hours a year. Now you're at $200 an hour IF NOTHING BREAKS or if you never have a single dollar of unscheduled maintenance.

How does that $150/hr rental sound now ?

You don't buy an airplane to save money over renting !

OK I don't know if you have simply have had a series of lemons, or you mechanic is overcharging you, or what the issue is. The reality is that that the numbers you are throwing out make 0 sense. For starters the additional $40 per hour is unnecessary as it has already been accounted for in the initial $100, with out it it would have been in the $60-$70 range. As for the $60, as I said earlier that is a FIXED COST and as such is amortized over the ENTIRE YEAR not just when the plane flies and there fore add only about $.70 to the hourly cost, only difference is that $.70 would be being payed so long as I owned the plane. I could fly 100, 1000, or none at all and it would still be $.70. So your $200/hr estimate is way off the mark.

 

As for maintenance, that is one of the reasons I started this threat was to try and get information on what are the common problem areas on Mooney so that when I do find one and get to the prebuy I can have a supplemental list of items beyond the basic ones that get covered in the prebuy for the mechanic to look into. That way I can find out before it breaks or becomes a problem and I can then go to the seller and either have them fix them prior to the sell, reduce the price to cover the cost, or walk away. This way I can reduce the chance that I will have to pay for the big ticket items and will only need to worry about general maintenance.

[cnoe]

Ranger, it's always going to be a crapshoot but I believe the odds are in your favor if your PPI is thorough and you're not buying a cam problem (which there's no way to know). Look for a recent tank reseal; all Mooneys eventually need it. Buy with avionics you can live with; you'll never recoup your money on upgrades. The fleet is aging so there will always be squawks but they don't have to break the bank. Sure some people can afford to overpay on annuals and maintenance but if you manage things well a few AMUs a year should easily cover it. Just don't buy a plane with a corroded spar or a 10 year old rebuild with only 75 hours TSMO.


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[KLRDMD]

1 hour ago, Ranger_Chris61 said:

. . . there fore add only about $.70 to the hourly cost, only difference is that $.70 would be being payed so long as I owned the plane. I could fly 100, 1000, or none at all and it would still be $.70. So your $200/hr estimate is way off the mark.

That's about the most creative rationalization I've ever seen. When the actual expenses come in and the airplane sits and then rots because you can't afford to maintain and fly it, maybe you'll look back and think you should have heeded the advice of those with actual experience owning and maintaining airplanes.

I've had 14 airplanes, been flying 22 years and have most of the ratings possible in a fixed wing airplane. Believe me, I've been there and done that.

Good luck with your 70¢ per hour amortization fantasy.

[Marauder]

Sorry if I am repeating stuff people already mentioned. I have been the same owner of my F for the past 25 years and have kept very complete cost records of aviation related costs. I mention it this way since there are more costs that folks sometimes don't take into account -- and they are real out of the pocket expenses and should be factored in either as a depreciation (number of hours flown that moves the engine closer to TBO) or as reserves (a firewall forward overhaul with mechanic labor can get you in the $30k+ range). In the 25 years I have owned, the cost of annual ownership goes up and down depending on how much flying I am doing and what breaks during the year. Over the 25 years I have seen a lot of changes. Fuel back in 1991 for me was $1.25 per gallon, hangar was $100 per month and the mechanic cost me $40 per hour. Today fuel is $4.37 per gallon, hangar is $450 per month and the mechanic is $85 per hour (shop rate). The fixed costs (hangar rent, avionic subscriptions, etc.) go down per hour as you fly more and the variable costs (fuel, maintenance, etc.) go up as you fly more. A good example is the comparison from last year to this year. I flew more last year but my maintenance costs were lower.

My annual total out of pocket over the past few years has ranged from around $18,000 to $27,000. Some of the "out of pocket" does include an engine and avionics reserve, but you need to factor it in as either depreciation or a cost that will occur if hang onto the plane. I factor in ALL costs since I am a long time owner and I expect the costs to be there for another engine overhaul, another prop overhaul and more avionics work to be done (still need to get the ADS-B solution installed). So, what does this equate to an hourly rate? An average around $180 per hour with as much as $300+ per hour on the bad years. It is important not to wear the rose colored glasses when you are looking at ownership. A LOT of owners don't go to the extent of tracking costs like I do either because they don't want to know (or they don't want their spouse to know) or figure they will deal with the costs as they come up. They also don't calculate in things such as avionics subscriptions. My rule of thumb when it comes to airplane related costs is that if it is needed to fly it, it gets captured. And I am not even go into the addition costs related to the toys we always want as pilots (I have bought probably 7 flight bags over the years). At my airport, I could send you pictures of 6 planes that I know for a fact are hangar queens because the owners had bitten off more than they could afford. Then there are a bunch of other planes collecting dust because the pilot lost interest, lost their medical and have plans on someday flying again or family/work life is consuming their free time.

As for leasebacks. I have yet to meet an owner who was happy about the arrangement. Keep in mind, the "it's a rental" mentality prevails. A good friend of mine did a leaseback of an IFR equipped Cessna 172 at a very active flight school. He arranged with the flight school that the plane would only be used for IFR instruction and for PP rentals. The final straw for him was the day he found grease marks on his CDIs and DGs from someone trying to teach tracking. Another lease back was my brother-in-law's Columbia 400. He put in leaseback 100 hours after buying it new. You would think that a high performance plane would be only rented to experienced pilots. After replacing jugs twice in the first 500 hours of leasebacks, he decided it was enough.

So why own? Simply for a day like tomorrow. There is a Mooney fly-in over in NJ. The keys are in my pocket, I know the plane will be there and ready to go. I have no pressure to get it back on time and I will enjoy tinkering with her when I get back tomorrow afternoon.

[Browncbr1]

Simply, you need to not care about $10-15k per year if you want to fly without thinking about it. That's if you get a good plane that had been wel cared for and doesn't have corrosion and just in a shade hangar.     Peace be with you. 

Edited December 5, 2016 by Browncbr1