Prop OH needed?

[Raptor05121]

Just now, Cody Stallings said:

IRAN that Sucker.

Your not part:135

Its your Propeller, it should be your choice.

Grease leak is a sign of Hard seals or Over serviced!!!

To fix that, an O/H is way to evasive.

 

 

exactly!!!!!!!!!!!

[Shadrach]

11 minutes ago, Cody Stallings said:

IRAN that Sucker.

Your not part:135

Its your Propeller, it should be your choice.

Grease leak is a sign of Hard seals or Over serviced!!!

To fix that, an O/H is way to evasive.

It's not been over serviced. I grease it every other annual and even then just a touch.

[jetdriven]

52 minutes ago, Cody Stallings said:

IRAN that Sucker.

Your not part:135

Its your Propeller, it should be your choice.

Grease leak is a sign of Hard seals or Over serviced!!!

To fix that, an O/H is way to evasive.

 

Its actually not a high tech O-ring at the blade root, and after 20 years it can get hard. Just have it IRAN'd, with a close eye on damage. Strip and paint they will find any damage.

[Cody Stallings]

I'm gonna say something here that's prob gonna get me blasted from all angles, but that's Okay, I'm a big boy I can handle it.

 

My little shop might not be a factory approved service center, so that means I'm in bed with nobody!!!! but it's Certified by the FAA for Dowty-Rotel,Hamilton Standard, McCauley, Hartzell an coming soon MT.

An I have Factory Trained propeller technicians.

(This is where I pull my pants down)

I keep reading on this site, as well as hearing it day to day in the prop world.

"Only O/H if outside of TBO"!!!!!

What? O/H!!! It has 300hrs on it in 6yrs you might say!!!

Shop is gonna tell you it's about liability an Safty of flight. 

Yes/No.

When a repairstation creates an 8130(return to service) in box 11 you will check O/H or Repair. With the O/H you have to do everything to the propeller that the manufacture says has to be done. An yes, your liable for that work.

With a Repair(Box 11) your only liable for the work performed in box12.

The prop is still operating under its TRSO!!

There is more liability in a O/H verses IRAN or Reseal!!

So you ask, Cody why is O/H my only option with these shops, an I answer.

Parts Sales!!!

Notice no part on any of you fellas propellers are available at OReillys, Autozone, Napa, ect!!!!

They come from 1 place, the same place that sets the minimum deminsions for these parts, is also the place that sales them. That's how O/H get expensive in a hurry, But the shop stands to make more $ with each O/H. 

That my friends is why the shops are adopting the Overhaul only if outside of TBO line of BS.

I have been in the prop world for along time, overhauled many propellers that didn't need to be. I have taken props apart that have been in service 20yrs an if serviced properly, looked new inside. I have also taken a few apart that were destroyed on the inside from lack of lubrication an to much moisture.

In a nutshell, you guys know how your propellers are taken care of. You know if you just have a grease leak, or if it's been neglected for many yrs an it's time for an O/H. You know that!!! Not a shop. You do.

 

A manufactures recommendation is just that. A recommendation!!!!!!!

Its your Prop, should be your Choice.

 

[jetdriven]

25 minutes ago, Cody Stallings said:

I'm gonna say something here that's prob gonna get me blasted from all angles, but that's Okay, I'm a big boy I can handle it.

 

My little shop might not be a factory approved service center, so that means I'm in bed with nobody!!!! but it's Certified by the FAA for Dowty-Rotel,Hamilton Standard, McCauley, Hartzell an coming soon MT.

An I have Factory Trained propeller technicians.

(This is where I pull my pants down)

I keep reading on this site, as well as hearing it day to day in the prop world.

"Only O/H if outside of TBO"!!!!!

What? O/H!!! It has 300hrs on it in 6yrs you might say!!!

Shop is gonna tell you it's about liability an Safty of flight. 

Yes/No.

When a repairstation creates an 8130(return to service) in box 11 you will check O/H or Repair. With the O/H you have to do everything to the propeller that the manufacture says has to be done. An yes, your liable for that work.

With a Repair(Box 11) your only liable for the work performed in box12.

The prop is still operating under its TRSO!!

There is more liability in a O/H verses IRAN or Reseal!!

So you ask, Cody why is O/H my only option with these shops, an I answer.

Parts Sales!!!

Notice no part on any of you fellas propellers are available at OReillys, Autozone, Napa, ect!!!!

They come from 1 place, the same place that sets the minimum deminsions for these parts, is also the place that sales them. That's how O/H get expensive in a hurry, But the shop stands to make more $ with each O/H. 

That my friends is why the shops are adopting the Overhaul only if outside of TBO line of BS.

I have been in the prop world for along time, overhauled many propellers that didn't need to be. I have taken props apart that have been in service 20yrs an if serviced properly, looked new inside. I have also taken a few apart that were destroyed on the inside from lack of lubrication an to much moisture.

In a nutshell, you guys know how your propellers are taken care of. You know if you just have a grease leak, or if it's been neglected for many yrs an it's time for an O/H. You know that!!! Not a shop. You do.

 

A manufactures recommendation is just that. A recommendation!!!!!!!

Its your Prop, should be your Choice.

 

Finally, the truth comes out. You'll ger my prop next time it has to come apart as well. Thank you.

[Cody Stallings]

Many thanks Guys.

Sometimes the BS gets to thick, an I have to vent in order to breath properly agin.

 

[Ron McBride]

Cody

What are the signs that I need and Iran, or an overhaul.  I have 25 years on mine and about 1500 hrs. on new blades.  I am still doing the eci test every 100 hrs.  I get a little oil on the backside of the prop occasionally, the prop will drift rpm a little as it gets warmer, then settles down after 5 or 10 minutes.

Ron

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

If you lose part or all of a blade in flight you should have the prop repaired.  

Otherwise just touch up the blades with Aluminum oxide sandpaper and grease the hub every few years.  

A little spray paint can make it look new again!

20, 30 even 40 years is nothing to a fine piece of precision machinery.  If there's a little grease streaking the blades that means there's still some in the hub, a good sign.

Fly on!

 

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Cody Stallings said:

Many thanks Guys.

Sometimes the BS gets to thick, an I have to vent in order to breath properly agin.

 

My mother once told me "if you bite your tongue too often, eventually you won't be able to speak"

Clarence

[RobertGary1]

I believe the overhaul is really just for 135. The prop shops I've used will discourage owners from asking for the O word since it adds expensive without benefit. I've usually had mine opened when it's spraying it's grease down the blade or after my engine failure to remove all the excess metal. 

 

-Robert

[Cody Stallings]

1 hour ago, N803RM said:

Cody

What are the signs that I need and Iran, or an overhaul.  I have 25 years on mine and about 1500 hrs. on new blades.  I am still doing the eci test every 100 hrs.  I get a little oil on the backside of the prop occasionally, the prop will drift rpm a little as it gets warmer, then settles down after 5 or 10 minutes.

Ron

 

Bubbling paint, visable corrosion, grease leaks, loose blades, dis colored grease, moisture in grease , ect!

[Ron McBride]

Cody  Thank You,  the professionals that ad there valuable time in teaching all of us is great.

Ron

 

[Vance Harral]

Reporting back here as promised.  Reinstalled our prop today after full overhaul.  Looks great, worked fine on the test flight, and no drama with the shop.  But a little over $2700 all in on the final bill - about 10% more expensive than quoted.  Seems to match up with Cody's main complaint about shops running up cost on parts.

I spoke with the technician about our blade margins after reshaping.  He said after this overhaul, which is the second on the blades, they have about a half inch of margin remaining on the chord, and about 50 thousandths of margin remaining on thickness.  His opinion was the blades will almost certainly tolerate another overhaul, and if it doesn't get too dinged up in the field, would likely pass even another overhaul after that.  So it seems our particular Hartzell prop is good for about 3-4 iterations of blade work from a responsible shop.  That's 24 years of service life even if you reprofile on the extremely conservative 6-year schedule, and only get 3 iterations of blade work.  Much longer on our 10-ish year overhaul schedule - essentially a lifetime.

I'm still a fan of IRAN/reseal instead of overhaul where practical, by the way.  But I don't think a full overhaul is a huge mistake/risk, if you're working with a reputable shop.  Might be the most practical option in some cases.

[carusoam]

Nice follow-up, Vance.

Thanks for sharing the details.

Best regards,

-a-

[Cody Stallings]

Ouch!!!!

What big ticket parts were replaced?

Or did they quote you the O/H without the parts Kit included?

[Vance Harral]

2 hours ago, Cody Stallings said:

Ouch!!!!

What big ticket parts were replaced?

Or did they quote you the O/H without the parts Kit included?

The $2500 quote included parts, but was "approximate".  I never had any illusion the final bill would be that number exactly, nor that there was any chance at all it would be less.

Attached is a copy of the invoice wither personal info removed.  $742.10 parts, $1980 labor.  Big-ticket items in the parts list include new mounting studs and nuts, bearings, and something called a "split keeper".

I'm not a propeller expert, and not in a position to quibble over whether every single part in the list is legally required to be replaced per the Hartzell overhaul manual.  Happy for everyone here to discuss the bill, but opinions that some parts might not have had to be replaced, or that the labor rate was expensive, aren't going to make me question the decision.

[Cody Stallings]

There are no big ticket parts on that list, thats just a basic parts list for the O/H.

What i ment by big ticket parts: Bearing race, Fork, Pitch change rod. Expensive parts.

[Vance Harral]

Thanks for the info, Cody.  Our bill is mostly labor, which I'm sure is dramatically higher than an IRAN/reseal due to all the mandatory operations that go with an overhaul, especially blade reprofiling.  The shop didn't break out the labor per hour, but I'd guess here in the Denver Metro area, the going retail rate is around $85/hour.  That would make for about 24 hours of labor on the full overhaul job, three full man-days.  Again, that hourly rate is just a guess, though.

[RobertGary1]

Did you use the "O" word? No reason to "Overhaul" the prop. Typically you just have then open, examine and replace parts as needed. No need to replace perfectly good parts unless the "O" work is really important to you. Then do it again in another 10-15 years.

 

-Robert

[Vance Harral]

On 8/31/2016 at 5:13 PM, RobertGary1 said:

Did you use the "O" word? No reason to "Overhaul" the prop. Typically you just have then open, examine and replace parts as needed. No need to replace perfectly good parts unless the "O" work is really important to you. Then do it again in another 10-15 years.

 

-Robert

Robert, as explained earlier in the thread, the only prop shop in the state (at the time) declined to do an IRAN.  Our options were to ship the prop out of state for an IRAN or do an overhaul locally, and we chose the latter.  The exact reason(s) the local shop won't IRAN a prop past calendar TBO aren't clear to me, but it's their business, their choice.  They've been around for decades, and their policy doesn't seem to be hurting their business.

[Mooneymite]

On 8/30/2016 at 1:43 AM, Vance Harral said:

The $2500 quote included parts, but was "approximate".  I never had any illusion the final bill would be that number exactly, nor that there was any chance at all it would be less.

Attached is a copy of the invoice wither personal info removed.  $742.10 parts, $1980 labor.  Big-ticket items in the parts list include new mounting studs and nuts, bearings, and something called a "split keeper".

I'm not a propeller expert, and not in a position to quibble over whether every single part in the list is legally required to be replaced per the Hartzell overhaul manual.  Happy for everyone here to discuss the bill, but opinions that some parts might not have had to be replaced, or that the labor rate was expensive, aren't going to make me question the decision.

It would be interesting for someone (not me!) who knows propeller parts to look at the charges for parts and see what Aircraft Spruce, or some such place would charge for the identical parts.  Looking at the prices of some of these items, I'm guessing some MUST be proprietary parts to have those sorts of costs.  I.E. $10.40 for a castellated nut?

[Vance Harral]

12 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

 I.E. $10.40 for a castellated nut?

The nuts in question go on the studs that attach the propeller to the crankshaft.  If you believe in "Jesus nuts", these would qualify.  They're much larger than the ones you see on fuel caps, control linkages, etc.  The part number is a specific Hartzell part, not a generic.

Spruce doesn't list the A2069, but Skygeek has 'em at $8.29 plus shipping.  They have the A-867 split keeper listed at $63.75, which is actually more expensive than the prop shop charged.  I don't really see any evidence of gouging here.

[carusoam]

You get $9 of paper work that accounts for the $1.40 Jesus nut.

You don't want to have that nut to get away...

I worked for a Textron supplier (a Dallas machine shop) for said nut. 

Best regards,

-a-

[Guest]

Put the cost of the overhaul in context against cylinders, engine parts etc. it's a cost of flying.  How many propeller ADs are the result of propellers which haven't seen a shop in decades?  We have to overhaul constant speed propellers every 10 years and fixed pitch ones go in every 5 years for inspection.

Clarence

[Shadrach]

I thought is was important to circle back and complete the circuit on this issue.

After a long talk with Randy at East Coast Propeller (ECP) I elected to send my prop to him for overhaul. The driver called me the morning of the scheduled pick up and arrived at my hangar at the prearranged time to retrieve my already removed prop. About a week later I got a call form Randy stating the overhaul was complete.  My 49 year old prop was great shape. The hub was corrosion free and that the blade shanks have enough material left on them to complete another (which will be the 4th) overhaul after this one.  Cost for OH was $1895 which included free pick up and delivery.  

As soon as my plane is back in service, I will be flying to Lancaster to have ECP dynamically balance my prop.  

At this stage, I cannot envision how ECP could have delivered better customer service or more reasonable pricing.  They did everything they said they would at a very competitive price and with a quick turnaround.  I would strongly encourage anyone in Mid-Atlantic to consider them for prop maintenance.