'67c Pricing Assistance

[omega708]

Howdy fellow Mooney owners.  The time has come for me to list my beloved C model, and I would greatly appreciate some assistance in determining a reasonable asking price.

Currently altered priorities make it difficult to justify continued ownership.  Fortunately, a friend of mine is looking to get into a partnership in a newer Mooney in about 2-3 years and that should fall in line with when I'll be looking to own a plane again.

Since the vintage mooney valuation tool is no longer maintained, I thought I'd ask you guys for some help.

Edit:  I probably should have mentioned originally, that the engine has solid compression on all cylinders, and doesn't use oil (or any more than any other lycoming that I've ever flown.)  

Specifics are as follows:

Times

• Tach Total Time: 3821
• Tach Time SMOH: 1800
• Tach Total Flight Time: 2200
• Time Since Prop Overhaul: 500
• Time Since Prop Reseal / Repaint : 50
• Time Since Mags Overhauled : 50
• Time Since Tank Reseal: 4 hours (right), 50 hours (left)

 

General

• No Damage History
• Continuous Logs Intact and Available (Hard Copy and Digital)
• Corrosion Free
   
   

 

Panel

• PS Engineering 8000B Audio Panel - With audio recorder / playback and Auxiliary MP3 input
• Garmin GTN-650 WAAS GPS / Nav / Comm 
• Garmin GI-106A CDI / Glideslope  
• TKM MX11 Digital Secondary Comm
• NARCO NAV-122 Secondary NAV/ILS/LOC
• NARCO TSO 150 Mode-C Transponder
• Strike Finder
• Digital Tach
• Digital Davtron Chronometer / OAT / Voltmeter

 

 

Upgrades

• LASAR 201 Windshield  - Less than 100 hours on new windshield
• Upgraded 1/4" Windows
• Whelen LED Landing Light
• Whelen LED Beacon
• Whelen High Intensity Belly Strobe
• Retrofit standard 6-pack instrument panel
• Alternator conversion STC (factory power was via generator)
• Aero-Comfort Custom Leather wrapped yokes with dual PTT
• SkyTec Lightweight / Highspeed Starter
• Brittain Accutrak II coupled to primary and secondary nav
• Precise Flight Backup Vacuum System
• LED Ring lights on instruments (dimmable)
• LED Interior Map Lights (dimmable)
• New Prop control cable and modern vernier
• New Mixture control cable and modern vernier
• CorrosionX treatment
• Powerflow Exhaust

 

Edited July 22, 2016 by omega708

[HRM]

Well, that is a FINE looking C, not quite Super, but Fine with a capital F.

Just a suggestion, but shouldn't you tuck the cowling seal up under the upper cowling in the photos?

[Hank]

Yeah, I have to do that ^^^^^ to my C about half the times I take the cowl off . . . Only takes a few seconds to do.

This looks like a nice plane! and should make someone a happy owner & pilot.

[omega708]

14 hours ago, HRM said:

Well, that is a FINE looking C, not quite Super, but Fine with a capital F.

Just a suggestion, but shouldn't you tuck the cowling seal up under the upper cowling in the photos?

 

Thanks.  38M isn't perfect, but it does a fine job of turning heads on the ramp. 

We'd just had the cowling off for an oil change and I'll second Hanks input on the matter.

[mooniac15u]

What is "tach total flight time"?

[Conrad]

I imagine 65k is about what it's worth with a 0 time engine, but from a buyer's perspective it's not wise to buy a plane with an 1800 hour engine unless you have an overhaul fund standing by. With that amount of cash on hand many of those buyers are going to be looking at J's. Are you sure you want to sell it?

Edited July 23, 2016 by Conrad

[omega708]

7 hours ago, mooniac15u said:

What is "tach total flight time"?

The E.I. Digital tach has a function to record flight time.  From the manual...

"The flight time tracker will begin recording time as soon as the engine speed reaches 2000 RPM, and will continue counting until the engine speed drops below 1200 RPM for more than 10 seconds."

The idea is that you're definitely going to exceed 2000 RPMs during takeoff, and I'm pretty sure you'd have a hard time staying airborne at 1200 RPMs. :-)

I'd need to look a little deeper through my documentation to see what minimum engine speed is required for the standard tach time to increment.

 

[omega708]

4 hours ago, Conrad said:

I imagine 65k is about what it's worth with a 0 time engine, but from a buyer's perspective it's not wise to buy a plane with an 1800 hour engine unless you have an overhaul fund standing by. With that amount of cash on hand many of those buyers are going to be looking at J's. Are you sure you want to sell it?

It makes sense to sell it at this point.  I do have a friend that is very familiar with the plane that is interested in buying it as is.  He's in the middle of building a new house, so cash is a little tight at the moment, and the bank will not loan what he and I had discussed as a purchase price.  I was hoping to get a few "ballpark" estimates from you guys to see if the bank is way off base or he and I are off base on the pricing.

 

If the plane is simply not worth what he and I had discussed, I may offer it to him at a lower price, or workout some other terms to make the deal work.  I'd much rather sell the plane to someone that I know, and someone that is familiar with the plane, rather than having to deal with listing it publicly.

 

I've always heard that the best time to sell something is when you have a buyer. 

 

[glafaille]

Omega708-

Nice mooney!  I wish you had put it up for sale a few months sooner!

In April I concluded a 6 month search for a "C" model Mooney without success, and ending up buying something else.  I would have very much liked to have made a run on your airplane, especially since you are in the neighborhood.  You plane has most of what I was looking for except a recent engine and newer autopilot.

Based on my experience I would value the aircraft in the $35,000 to $40,000 range.  I can't see any "C" model Mooney bringing much over $60,000 as it is too close to the price of an older "J" model.  Your plane has plenty of nice upgrades and appears to show well.  GPSS would be nice, perhaps you have it and forgot to list.

A quality engine overhaul is at least $20,000 after tax, title and license and could easily run much higher.  The invoice for the overhaul of my O-360 from Zephyr was $24,000.

So $60,000 less $20,000 makes for a $40,000 value at best.  Personally, I would have to have a warm fuzzy feeling that the total cost of the overhaul would not exceed my budget of $20,000 before considering paying so high a price.  Plus at that price the maintenance history would have to be very good with occasional annuals at a Mooney Service Center.  $35,000 would be much more comfortable.

Just my opinion.

[omega708]

Just now, glafaille said:

Omega708-

Nice mooney!  I wish you had put it up for sale a few months sooner!

In April I concluded a 6 month search for a "C" model Mooney without success, and ending up buying something else.  I would have very much liked to have made a run on your airplane, especially since you are in the neighborhood.  You plane has most of what I was looking for except a recent engine and newer autopilot.

Based on my experience I would value the aircraft in the $35,000 to $40,000 range.  I can't see any "C" model Mooney bringing much over $60,000 as it is too close to the price of an older "J" model.  Your plane has plenty of nice upgrades and appears to show well.  GPSS would be nice, perhaps you have it and forgot to list.

A quality engine overhaul is at least $20,000 after tax, title and license and could easily run much higher.  The invoice for the overhaul of my O-360 from Zephyr was $24,000.

So $60,000 less $20,000 makes for a $40,000 value at best.  Personally, I would have to have a warm fuzzy feeling that the total cost of the overhaul would not exceed my budget of $20,000 before considering paying so high a price.  Plus at that price the maintenance history would have to be very good with occasional annuals at a Mooney Service Center.  $35,000 would be much more comfortable.

Just my opinion.

 

Thanks for the follow up! 

While it only has the Brittain AccuTrak setup, it is coupled to the GPS/Nav and the secondary Nav as well.  It does a fantastic job of tracking the "magenta line" en route, but a little pilot assistance is preferred when intercepting a new course, if that new course is more than 20 degrees from your current heading.

 

The $35k number is right in the ballpark for what the bank was happy to loan for the plane, while he and I were talking in the $42.5k - 45k range.

[Conrad]

4 hours ago, omega708 said:

The $35k number is right in the ballpark for what the bank was happy to loan for the plane, while he and I were talking in the $42.5k - 45k range.

35k is low I think.

Remember when doing the calculations that whatever the cost of overhaul is, only a percentage of the total overhaul cost becomes part of the resale value. I'm guessing the percentage is pretty standard across makes and models, so you could figure it out.

I also suspect the bank number might be low for two reasons (but I'm not an expert):

First most planes you primarily only need to consider one major cost cycle, which is engine overhaul. The bank takes that cycle into account when doing valuations. Mooneys (sans bladders) have two major cycles: engine and tanks. The bank might not be considering the value added to the plane by a tank reseal because they lump in with the value of basic airworthiness, which I'd argue it isn't since a tank reseal has a finite life, and can be near the end of it even if the tanks are not leaking yet (and definitely not leaking to the point of being an airworthiness issue).

Second I think the 650 bumps what would normally be the max asking price for a C up a little bit, because they're not on the market used and in fact I've only seen one or two C's with them in

[glafaille]

The elephant in the room is the engine, everything else is pocket change.  Realistically, the engine can be expected to easily last another 500 hours, or 5 to 7 years of normal service.  On the other hand, a buyer must be prepared to drop $20,000 to $30,000 for an engine at any time, and without much warning.

If you can find a buyer willing to run the engine well past overhaul you will get more for it than someone that won't.  Too bad you are not keeping the plane, from now on it will cost you very little in residual value to continue operating it.  You know the engine better than anyone.

[chrisk]

$35K to $45K feels like it is in the right range.  --And the plane does have a lot going for it.  A WAAS gps and a working autopilot alone make it more desirable than average.  Nice paint, a prop reseal, and LED lighting  are nice too (and suggest well cared for).  --I do have a question on the tank reseal.  Who did it, and was it a full strip and reseal, or just a patch?

[Mooneymite]

1800 hours in the eyes of a seller is an engine with lots of time left on it.  1800 hours in the eyes of a buyer is "runout".

It is tough territory to negotiate.

 

Edited July 24, 2016 by Mooneymite

[omega708]

On 7/24/2016 at 0:20 AM, Conrad said:

35k is low I think.

Remember when doing the calculations that whatever the cost of overhaul is, only a percentage of the total overhaul cost becomes part of the resale value. I'm guessing the percentage is pretty standard across makes and models, so you could figure it out.

I also suspect the bank number might be low for two reasons (but I'm not an expert):

First most planes you primarily only need to consider one major cost cycle, which is engine overhaul. The bank takes that cycle into account when doing valuations. Mooneys (sans bladders) have two major cycles: engine and tanks. The bank might not be considering the value added to the plane by a tank reseal because they lump in with the value of basic airworthiness, which I'd argue it isn't since a tank reseal has a finite life, and can be near the end of it even if the tanks are not leaking yet (and definitely not leaking to the point of being an airworthiness issue).

Second I think the 650 bumps what would normally be the max asking price for a C up a little bit, because they're not on the market used and in fact I've only seen one or two C's with them in

Thanks for the input.

From what I saw from the bank, they were valuing the GTN 650 like a standard WAAS GNS-430.  While the 430 is a solid IFR GPS, the 650 should definitely be worth a little bit of a bump.  Granted, I'm probably a little biased.

[omega708]

23 hours ago, chrisk said:

$35K to $45K feels like it is in the right range.  --And the plane does have a lot going for it.  A WAAS gps and a working autopilot alone make it more desirable than average.  Nice paint, a prop reseal, and LED lighting  are nice too (and suggest well cared for).  --I do have a question on the tank reseal.  Who did it, and was it a full strip and reseal, or just a patch?

Thanks, it's certainly a reliable and capable machine.

The tank reseal was a full strip and reseal,  and was performed by my preferred on-field AP/AI.

[Htwjr]

I have a '67 C also and think that is the best year.  My plane has low time engine and prop as well as new windows and alternator but not the upgrades such as  201 windshield and GPS.  I would guess/hope mine would be worth 35k.  I would think the nice upgrades would offset for the engine.  What serial # is yours?  Just curious.

[omega708]

11 minutes ago, Htwjr said:

I have a '67 C also and think that is the best year.  My plane has low time engine and prop as well as new windows and alternator but not the upgrades such as  201 windshield and GPS.  I would guess/hope mine would be worth 35k.  I would think the nice upgrades would offset for the engine.  What serial # is yours?  Just curious.

I have to say that the 201 windshield upgrade made the cabin significantly larger.  It was shocking how different the cockpit felt the first time I climbed in after the install.

38M is serial# 670109.

[rbridges]

Keep in mind that J models in the low 60s will more than likely have mid time+ engines and/or dated panels. I think 40's is realistic for his plane. It seems that nice C models are going for close to 60 now. 

[Patto]

I bought my '74 C with 374 SMOH last month for $35,200. Avionics are dated. Nothing really new or nice. Paint is a 5. Interior is a 6. No fancy upgrades to speak of. Two damage entries, both were gear up landings, all repairs logged.

The previous owner had been trying to sell it for $40k but with no success. 

Just for reference.

[DXB]

I'm predicting this beautiful aircraft will bring the best sale price within the great state of Texas (or maybe Puerto Rico)  

[omega708]

38 minutes ago, DXB said:

I'm predicting this beautiful aircraft will bring the best sale price within the great state of Texas (or maybe Puerto Rico)  

I considered posting an advertisement that started out with something like...

"If you love Texas and like to go fast...."