Hard times for Mooney

[mooneygirl]

Mooney employees received unwelcome news this week as the holiday season approaches.

http://www.mooney.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=576&Itemid=54

[Piloto]

Mooney needs to diversify if it wants to continue in business. The low end market of 4 place single pistons is pretty well saturated and there is not susbtantial number of new buyers coming into it. The Mooney lovers market is saturated with a lot of good used Mooneys that can be purchased at less than half the price of a new one. Furthermore the purchase of a used Mooney makes more economical sense than buying into a new one due to quick depreciation of the new one. Like any other goods market new buyers are not born every day. In order to sell again to the same population you have to introduce new products with appealing new features. This is the strategy played by Garmin, TV manufacturers, Apple, Game manufacturers and others. Mooney would have to come up with a substantially different and appealing product like a six seater MOGAS powered airplane. Otherwise it is competing with itself with no chance of success

José 

[N33GG]

Very sad.  I have been a Mooney fan for a long, long time.  I used to own a J, and now own a C.  Both are amazing aircraft.  I have flown many different aircraft, and Mooney is by far my favorite.

However, I have to wonder if bigger, better, and more wow factor is the right answer.  It seems to me that this always equates to a more complex and expensive product.  (By the way, this is not a problem that is unique and limited to the aircraft industry.)  What made Mooney successful in the first place was a very efficient and cost effective product.  What has gotten them into trouble (in my humble opinion) was trying to compete with Beech Bonanzas and other luxury aircraft.  What happened to controlling costs to the consumer?  If I were running Mooney, I would say fine, let's have a high end product or two with the glass cockpits and big turbo engines for the buyers with wads of extra money to spend, but how about a basic stripped down J model with simple IFR panel for less than $150K new, as was the MSE back in the '90s.  Wouldn't that be attractive today?  The problem is the huge gap between the new aircraft prices and the used ones, and no lower cost new aircraft alternatives...and hence my ownership of a '68 C model for less money than you can argue with for the performance and capability it provides.  I had top end avionics and glass in my J model.  It was nice, but not something I have to have.  You can have a fancy panel in a Piper Cherokee 140, and it is still a Cherokee 140 (No offense intended to the Cherokee 140 owners...I used to own one and I loved it.  Cherokees are excellent airplanes.)  The magic of a Mooney is not the expensive glass cockpit.  The magic of a Mooney is the airframe, wing, and engine combination that provides performance like no other aircraft.

Hey Mooney:  Sometimes less is more. 

Or as we say down here in Texas:  "You gotta dance with the one that brung ya."

Just my 2 cents.

[DaV8or]

This is the critical part of the artical-

"In addition, the company intends to continue to provide technical support to existing owners and a level of spare parts support for Mooney airplanes."

This is exactly the focus Mooney should have. We have to face facts. Production of new Mooneys is DEAD. Maybe someday in the future there will be another new build M20 (I will plug once again the idea for an M20J adaption to kit plane), but for now, the history on Al Mooney's creations has been writen. There is not likely to be any more. The best thing to focus on for all fans of the M20 is supporting the fleet that has been built.

[Capt_CrashN_Burn]

Quote: Piloto

... Like any other goods market new buyers are not born every day. In order to sell again to the same population you have to introduce new products with appealing new features. This is the strategy played by Garmin, TV manufacturers, Apple, Game manufacturers and others. Mooney would have to come up with a substantially different and appealing product like a six seater MOGAS powered airplane. Otherwise it is competing with itself with no chance of success

José 

[DaV8or]

Quote: N6719N

but how about a basic stripped down J model with simple IFR panel for less than $150K new, as was the MSE back in the '90s.  Wouldn't that be attractive today?

[HopePilot]

Re:  Modern J

I have been told that the airframe alone would cost 90k to build.  Want an engine and avionics, well, that's gonna cost extra...  

[tony]

Dave is right on.  There is no return on investment for Mooney to develop a new product in an economy that can’t produce a market for their products.  The best gamble is for them to leverage on the assets they have and cater to that market that captive.  That’s us.  They need to focus on sustainment, upgrades, mods, and improvements.  That 100 hour AD to my landing gear actuator really bugs me and the failure mode isn’t too pleasant.

Let’s face it; we are all a little eccentric.  How many of us when asked “what kind of airplane do you have?”  We smile with pride and say, I have Mooney.

[jax88]

Hopefully they will choose to focus on service and support and do so in competitive fashion.  If I had the option to get my annual, maintenance, upgrades, etc. from the factory at prices that were competitive with MSCs, I'd be more than happy to do so.

[N33GG]

A stripped down J model today for $150K a fantasy...maybe, but maybe not.  I don't know how much a stripped down J model could cost in today's market, and neither does anyone else, because that was not an ongoing business goal for Mooney, and I think that is unfortunate.   I am never surprised at the results that can be achieved over time when companies put their minds and resources towards a goal. 

I do hope that Mooney will contunue to support the fleet, as they have in the past, for which I am very grateful.

[Barry]

A less expensive Mooney models may have been a reality had the tooling and jigs for the short/medium models not been destroyed. To do that now would require all of the start up costs of a new model. It would probably require re-certification by the FAA.

Well ... I guess they needed the space ...

[fantom]

Quote: jax88

Hopefully they will choose to focus on service and support and do so in competitive fashion.  If I had the option to get my annual, maintenance, upgrades, etc. from the factory at prices that were competitive with MSCs, I'd be more than happy to do so.

[DaV8or]

My Mooney Plan- (grain of salt, 2 cents, etc...)

Quit plans of new certified plane production with the exception of any partially built airframes left in the factory. Those should be completed as time and money allow.

Retool factory for the production of parts to support the fleet. Bring in and utilize CNC type production to automate parts production as much as possible. Maybe visit the Vans factory to see how they make incredibly accurate pre punched and formed aluminum panels cheaply. Work towards flexibility so that M20A - TN parts can be quickly built on demand.

Work on affordable upgrade solutions for older airframes.

Work on mods and improvements for speed, function and comfort, then sell those kits just like the aftermarket does now.

Create a competitive factory service center for complete owner needs.

Consider a "owner assist" program much like the kit companies do a "builder assist" program for things like annuals and mod upgrades.

Have the engineers redesign the M20J from the spar up to be a more builder friendly kit plane. This plane could be built by the owner to have the O-360, IO-360, Turbo or Delta Hawk diesel. Follow on kits could be the Rocket and Missile versions. Many people have told me that this is impossible and the J is just too hard and complex for the average Joe to build. Maybe the way it is now that is true, however when I went to both Airventure and the AOPA Summit, who was displaying right between Cessna and Cirrus? Lancair. And what does Lancair sell? Very high performance, very complex kit planes. Add to that the fact that Vans is quicky becoming the largest producer of airplanes in the world and I would have to say there is something to this kit manufacturing business. The M20J would have a lot of appeal to potential kit builders and has the advantage over it's rivals by being derived from a certified plane with a long flight history and known qualities.

Finally, keep the designers and engineers working on the down low an all new, ground up airplane to go beyond the Cirrus, but maintain some of Al Mooney's concepts so that the new plane would be distinctly Mooney. Wait for better financial times and then build a prototype. With the prototype, then look for investors.

[Mooney_Allegro]

Well this is very disappointing news.  My aircraft is currently at the Mooney factory in Kerrville, TX undergoing an annual inspection.  I took it there because I was VERY dissatisfied with two Mooney Service Centers I used in Georgia with below standard work done on my aircraft at both service centers over a two year period for the annuals.  I was tired of dealing with Service Centers that didn't pay attention to detail. 

I took my plane to Mooney because I was so impressed with the staff there, the extremely personalized service I received, especially from Mr. Brian Kendrick at the Service Center.  He's the best and most knowledgable person I've ever dealt with concerning my Mooney.   The prices they charge for service are very competitive and the only disadvantage I found is that they require a 50% upfront deposit for work done the day you drop off your plane. 

I didn't see anything in the press release that the Service Center will remain open.  I only read that they will support the fleet via technical support and spare parts.  Does anyone know if the Service Center will remain open?  I'm waiting for a call from Brian Kendrick, maybe he can shed some light on what's going on.  I sure hope he doesn't lose his job, I think he's one of the best they have now, along with Bill Wheat of course, Stacey Ellis/Missy Dominguez and Paul Kehner. 

When I was down there last month, I asked them if they will bring back the J model or something on the lower end for the people like me that can't afford a new high-performance model. Their answer was no.  I agree with the above posts that they need to have an upper end and lower end, like most airplane companies have.  Maybe I don't see the big picture though. 

 

 

[Capt_CrashN_Burn]

Quote: tony

Dave is right on.  There is no return on investment for Mooney to develop a new product in an economy that can’t produce a market for their products...

Let’s face it; we are all a little eccentric.  How many of us when asked “what kind of airplane do you have?”  We smile with pride and say, I have Mooney.

[Capt_CrashN_Burn]

Quote: HopePilot

Re:  Modern J

I have been told that the airframe alone would cost 90k to build.  Want an engine and avionics, well, that's gonna cost extra...  

[Capt_CrashN_Burn]

Quote: DaV8or

My Mooney Plan- (grain of salt, 2 cents, etc...)

Quit plans of new certified plane production with the exception of any partially built airframes left in the factory. Those should be completed as time and money allow.

Retool factory for the production of parts to support the fleet. Bring in and utilize CNC type production to automate parts production as much as possible. Maybe visit the Vans factory to see how they make incredibly accurate pre punched and formed aluminum panels cheaply. Work towards flexibility so that M20A - TN parts can be quickly built on demand.

Work on affordable upgrade solutions for older airframes.

Work on mods and improvements for speed, function and comfort, then sell those kits just like the aftermarket does now.

Create a competitive factory service center for complete owner needs.

Consider a "owner assist" program much like the kit companies do a "builder assist" program for things like annuals and mod upgrades.

Have the engineers redesign the M20J from the spar up to be a more builder friendly kit plane. This plane could be built by the owner to have the O-360, IO-360, Turbo or Delta Hawk diesel. Follow on kits could be the Rocket and Missile versions. Many people have told me that this is impossible and the J is just too hard and complex for the average Joe to build. Maybe the way it is now that is true, however when I went to both Airventure and the AOPA Summit, who was displaying right between Cessna and Cirrus? Lancair. And what does Lancair sell? Very high performance, very complex kit planes. Add to that the fact that Vans is quicky becoming the largest producer of airplanes in the world and I would have to say there is something to this kit manufacturing business. The M20J would have a lot of appeal to potential kit builders and has the advantage over it's rivals by being derived from a certified plane with a long flight history and known qualities.

Finally, keep the designers and engineers working on the down low an all new, ground up airplane to go beyond the Cirrus, but maintain some of Al Mooney's concepts so that the new plane would be distinctly Mooney. Wait for better financial times and then build a prototype. With the prototype, then look for investors.

[Vref]

Mooneys are very labour intensive to build...IMHO..for what it is worth ...a combination of metal and composite in a m20J format and you have a winner! Certified IFR sep aircraft will be always required (in combination with an innovative powerplant)....fuel consumption is the driver

Look at embraer 15 years ago the company was virtually dead look at the company now..........

What I was thinking how far can they go in compositing airframe parts to reduce production cost and still keep the original certification requirements..(the metal molds are destroyed I understand)..Airbus is doing that Boeing is doing that...

When I look out the window in the morning I see 757's, 737's with winglets...maybe an M20J with winglets...and a diesel powerplant....

OK .....you need $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for certification

 

[Scott Aviation]

Quote: Capt_CrashN_Burn

 And what Jose said is true. Even if they could build a modern J at a decent price, they're still stuck competing against themselves with all the used J's on the market. This is what doomed the International Scout. No one wanted to buy a new Scout because used Scouts were cheaper and almost as good.

[Capt_CrashN_Burn]

Quote: scottaviation

[AustinChurch]

Which is the apple and which is the orange? :-)

[Kwixdraw]

Quote: AustinChurch

Which is the apple and which is the orange? :-)

[Capt_CrashN_Burn]

OK, I've got the solution to Mooney's problems:

 

American Airplane Builder, the TV reality series!!!

The story would resonate with the American people because the plight of Mooney is the plight of many small American companies who are struggling to make it. If the show got good enough ratings, then Mooney could rake in money the same way they did at Orange County Choppers... MERCHANDISING!!! Most of O.C.C.'s money that came in after the show became popular was off of t-shirt and hat sales. Mooney has a cool looking logo that could be the next "it" thing!!

 

OK, I'll put down my crack pipe... :-D

[Parker_Woodruff]

How bout we start by having a country with some competitive business laws, and a state that doesn't tax business property so much?  Maybe also realizing that Texas wants $50,000 on every new Acclaim that's sold to a Texan.  Lean is the only way to run a business these days, and Mooney cannot do this with their type of facilities.  Take it from a logistics type by education, and a part time small business owner and small business employee full time.  I've seen it from a lot of different angles.

Trying to make a dollar in this country is nearly impossible.  I don't see how any aircraft manufacturer can do it.

The problem isn't with just Mooney, it's the good ole USA.  A $15/hour employee really costs $25 when it's all said and done.  Mooney was able to do it at one point, but the product just isn't there to overcome this.  It's got a huge facility that's weighing it down as well.

Ever thought that with a country that doesn't try to take every profitable dollar in some form or another some people would be able to have disposeable income at greater levels to buy these new birds?

[scottfromiowa]

Nailed it Parker.  The recipients are coming...and they are hungry.  Say it with me ALL HAIL THE RECIPIENT...ALL HAIL THE RECIPIENT...ALL HAIL THE RECIPIENT.  46% of Americans DON'T pay federal income tax.  You rich airplane drivers and companies that make 'em need to pony up...

THAT is the America we live in.  Go hug a Lawyer...and politician...oops probably hitting them when you hug a lawyer.

Until laws are changed (liability) and government is reduced (at all levels) more of the same is coming.  Enjoy!