Northeast ATC Assigned Routes

[Marauder]

I apologize upfront for the length of this post. I'm curious to figure out how ATC determines routing in the northeast U.S. for /G airplanes and hope that any controllers who frequent this forum may be able to give some insight to the process or at least the logic. 

Some background information. I've been IFR rated since the early 1990s. Until December 2012 I have been exclusively a /A filer. Back in the 90s it was fairly common that you were stuck on the airways and corners were cut occasionally when VORs were close enough. When VFR portable GPS units became available, I learned that putting "VFR GPS" in the remarks section would often give/result in something like "Marauder, fly heading 310, when able proceed direct XXX". "XXX" was a VOR in my flight plan but was usually so far away that I would never receive it for quite a while. Since I was in radar coverage the whole time, I figured that the controller was throwing me a bone. 

Fast forward to 2013. Equipped with the new /G hardware I started to file direct routes. I learned quickly there is no such thing as a direct route in the northeast. In fact, it doesn't appear to even be a standard route in the Northeast. I fly to western NY several times a year. The route I filed as a /A wouldn't be assigned. In fact, routes that I accepted and flew would usually be changed but now with the added feature of some bizarre spelled waypoint, sometimes on an airway, sometimes an RNAV waypoint.

When Bob Belville came visiting, I gave him a route I had filed /A only to see the poor man being given a route that appear to have been created in a random route generator. Sorry Bob!

Which leads me to Saturday's IFR flight to Orange County (KMGJ). I have filed part of this route in the past as a /A when going to Maine, so I thought it should be fine. Sparta VOR is the IAF for approaches going into Orange County.

When I picked up my clearance at N57, I was given this gem: N57 MXE PTW FJC LAAYK PRNCE FILPS KMGJ

As I was flying this route, Allentown tells me that if I am willing to go to 5000' I can have a more direct route. I accepted and was given this prior to getting to FJC: SCOUP V162 HUO DIRECT

I know there are Letter of Agreements between Center and Approach facilities and I am sure this is what happened with the re-route. But I also know that depending on when I'm flying I can and have seen different routing issued from something I have flown before. All of this seems linked to the /G capability. 

So... for those who are in ATC or those who have more /G experience, what is the key to filing a route /G and getting something close? I would think in the world of today's automated systems these are stored as preferred routes. I tried fltpln.com to see if I can see a trend but unfortunately it doesn't seem to cover many flights from my airport or even the surrounding ones. 

I will say that the new GTN series makes it a lot easier since the predictive entry finds waypoints close to my route. My biggest gripe is that in a high workload situation, loading up a series of waypoints adds to the workload. Interesting in reading what others have experienced. 

[Mooneymite]

29 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Interesting in reading what others have experienced. 

In my experience, fly south of Washington center and just file GPS direct.   

[gsengle]

If you figure it out you let me know - New England here. A local-ish instrument routing can practically double the distance.

If you crack the secret let me know!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ArtVandelay]

Anywhere close to Bravo airspace and they want you out of the approach path, did you check the SIDs and STARs? I would check the altitudes use and pick an altitude thats 2000' above or below.

Looks like they use 5000 as top altitude in all, with 3 major APs it's no wonder you get redirected.

[gsengle]

29 minutes ago, Marauder said: Interesting in reading what others have experienced. 

In my experience, fly south of Washington center and just file GPS direct.   

Basically the states where I find this to be true are: MA CT RI NY NJ MD DE and eastern PA

[Bob_Belville]

Chris, I agree that the your area is "special". The clearance I got out of your home drome was similar to clearances coming out of ME or MA toward Lancaster PA, my more usual pit stop between NE and NC. But the 750 and GPSS makes it pretty easy. I've never gotten anything similar anywhere else from VA to TN to TX to FL. 

Actually, flying up the coast over JFK is pretty standard routing. Airways near NY and then more direct.

 

[jlunseth]

I see the same thing around Chicago and in FL.  It is different every trip and depends on time of day among other things.

I don't know if this will help at all.  Minneapolis ARTCC (its called Farmington here) gives a WINGS Seminar that includes a tour of the facility and you get to sit with a controller.  One interesting thing we learned is that the major limiting factor in the system now is not air routes but landing capacity.  Here at MSP they can land 90 an hour most of the time.  The number at JFK (just east of your route) is 44.  That is an aircraft every minute and a half.  Newark was about the same.  In order to stage that landing traffic, a Conga line is formed that, at some times during the day, stretches all the way to LA.  Responsibility for loading that Conga line gets passed to Cleveland, Chicago, Minneapolis, Denver, etc., all the way to and including LA.  We watched that Conga line, and when I was there it was pretty thin out west, but there was no space at all when it got to the East Coast.  That is just one of the feeder routes.  Obviously, the descent process for that Conga line is dictated by prevailing winds and the Arrival in use.  The higher you would like to be and the more stacked that Conga line is, the further west of JFK they are going to want to push you.  I don't know how it is out east but around here the lowest we can get for anything but a very short route is 4,000.  Lower than that, no radar.  So you are sort of stuck with 4 or 5,000 depending on course.

The problem with slant G is that there an almost limitless supply of those five letter waypoints.  If they give you a standard route like an airway its not too bad to figure out, but around the major metro areas west of the Miss. You are just going to get those multi-waypoint routes.  Make them spell the waypoints.  Make sure you put the first waypoint for that amended route in and go direct to that waypoint.  That gives you time to put the rest in.  That is about as helpful as I can be.  Hope someone knows that route.

[Marauder]

29 minutes ago, Marauder said: Interesting in reading what others have experienced. 

In my experience, fly south of Washington center and just file GPS direct.   

That is exactly what happened when Jerry and I went to Sun N Fun. Once cleared of Washington Center, it was pretty close to being direct.

[Marauder]

I see the same thing around Chicago and in FL.  It is different every trip and depends on time of day among other things.

I don't know if this will help at all.  Minneapolis ARTCC (its called Farmington here) gives a WINGS Seminar that includes a tour of the facility and you get to sit with a controller.  One interesting thing we learned is that the major limiting factor in the system now is not air routes but landing capacity.  Here at MSP they can land 90 an hour most of the time.  The number at JFK (just east of your route) is 44.  That is an aircraft every minute and a half.  Newark was about the same.  In order to stage that landing traffic, a Conga line is formed that, at some times during the day, stretches all the way to LA.  Responsibility for loading that Conga line gets passed to Cleveland, Chicago, Minneapolis, Denver, etc., all the way to and including LA.  We watched that Conga line, and when I was there it was pretty thin out west, but there was no space at all when it got to the East Coast.  That is just one of the feeder routes.  Obviously, the descent process for that Conga line is dictated by prevailing winds and the Arrival in use.  The higher you would like to be and the more stacked that Conga line is, the further west of JFK they are going to want to push you.  I don't know how it is out east but around here the lowest we can get for anything but a very short route is 4,000.  Lower than that, no radar.  So you are sort of stuck with 4 or 5,000 depending on course.

The problem with slant G is that there an almost limitless supply of those five letter waypoints.  If they give you a standard route like an airway its not too bad to figure out, but around the major metro areas west of the Miss. You are just going to get those multi-waypoint routes.  Make them spell the waypoints.  Make sure you put the first waypoint for that amended route in and go direct to that waypoint.  That gives you time to put the rest in.  That is about as helpful as I can be.  Hope someone knows that route.

I do get a sense that time of day and day of week come into play. What I do find interesting is that when I filed nothing but /A, I got almost always a Victor airway and if it was changed it was usually an intercept of a new airway or a VOR. I now wonder if /G does open up the treasure chest of 5 letter identifiers allowing them to a way to circumvent you around the Congo lines easier. As Bob pointed out earlier, the GTN and GPSS help a lot with the workload.

On the flight back I went VFR and did flight following. Other than an "advise before changing altitude" request, I went almost straight line back. It only got bad when Philly decided to drop me when they said "multiple targets near you, squawk VFR, freq change approved". Fortunately I had the traffic already in sight -- including the one that passed 200' below me.

[Guest Mike261]

There appears to be no rhyme or reason up here in the northeast. Its very congested and I take what i get IFR, and it usually turns into something more direct. VFR is much easier, just overfly everything. Sometimes you get surprised and they give you a nice route while you're enroute, i think they do make an effort to accommodate when they can. Often times the controllers are working two frequencies and really have their hands full, and you're stuck on some gerrymandered route.  I was coming back from the islands tracking around the boston bravo tonight. albeit i was vfr with following, but the controller asked me if i would like to go right through the bravo without me even requesting it. he cleared me right in along the coast so close to the airport i was actually a bit unnerved, then he vectored me right over logan at 4000 feet on a busy sunday. As soon as i was right over KBOS looking down at the jets taking off and landing i was cleared direct to my destination KLWM altitude at my discretion. I was a little stunned, and apprehensive at the same time. right smack dab over logan at 4000 feet and free to descend and navigate in the bravo airspace. With all the traffic up here they really do a good job, and if they have the room they'll accommodate you.

[Marauder]

Anywhere close to Bravo airspace and they want you out of the approach path, did you check the SIDs and STARs? I would check the altitudes use and pick an altitude thats 2000' above or below.

Looks like they use 5000 as top altitude in all, with 3 major APs it's no wonder you get redirected.

I'm pretty familiar with Philly's modus operandi when the rush offer traffic is in full force. This being a Saturday morning, I wasn't surprised by the re-route to PTW (Pottstown) but was surprised being given it on a Saturday morning. I have also had them send me on a north heading then turn me back east towards the airway. That is what happened when I flew to the last fly-in in New Jersey.

[jlunseth]

Coming out of SE FL you will get something with "BRAIN" in it, only that's just the way they say it, it is "BAIRN."  (Routes you around JAX and east of St. Pete."  Transitioning south of Chicago you will get something with KELSI and/or EON (Peotone VOR).  Going in to DuPage and depending on time of day they will give you a route that pushes you west, like the PRNCE-LAYKE route you got, then when you are due west of DuPage they will typically send you in direct.  Going in to Fredricksburg from the west they will send you to the Westminister VOR, which is well east of KFDK.  I was told out at PDK that was a vestige of a reorganization of the NY and Wash ARTCC reorganization, NY apparently gets better compensation or something if they handle the route that way.  They break you off when due north of FDK and send you straight in, probably right after you cross the ARTCC line into NY space.  

I think the difference between /A and /G is just the amount of ammunition they have to move you around.  

We should keep a list of these.  When you are a one person operation and you get something like MikeAlphaPappaPappaSierradirectEchoOscarNovemberdirectKiloEchoLimaSierraIndiadirectSomethingElsedirectRomeoFoxtrotDelta it puts a little strain on the humanoid component of the aircraft's nav systems.  Especially in the air.  Especially when MikeAlphaPappaPappaSierra is only 20 miles and you are doing 200 kts. over the ground.  Alot easier if you have heard or read about it before you get there.

[Robert C.]

My experience in that corner is that you never get any route with SAX and SBJ when you are headed into the area. Almost always you get LAAYK as you discovered.

Outbound you also don't often get SAX. I once asked a controller about it and he replied that it interferes with the heavy iron going into Newark. I also cannot get a routing over NYC even above 10k. 

I think it has more to do with GA vs the airlines than /G

Robert

[Yooper Rocketman]

I flew out of Toughkenamon (N57) years ago, which is just out of KPHL, and it was on a weekend when the FBO was closed (no land line available), no cell phone, and marginal VFR.  I didn't know what to expect with routing, so filed Direct to an airport in Ohio to get fuel.  When I attempted to pull a clearance airborne, the departure controller was pretty pissed.  He said " you expect to get this clearance airborne?  Why didn't you call on the ground?"  I said I tried, but couldn't raise you from the ground.  After much explanation about why I couldn't call before launching, he finally said he was too busy so the best I could get was VFR Flight Following.  I accepted and started scrambling to find an airport to land at. 

About 5 minutes later another controller comes on (obviously a supervisor) and asks me if I am ready to copy and accept an IFR Clearance.  I said yes and he rattles off one with about 10 way points, all of which I had never heard of.  Pissed myself, I read the clearance back twice as fast as he gave it to me.  That changed everything, as they then realized I was not a newbie.  I flew to one way point and then the original controller gave me Direct.   Really?  

Coming out of Detroit on medical flights I always get the scenic tour of the area too.  One time after a pretty crazy routing, I asked departure if he had a second?  When he did, I explained I had a baby on a respirator and would like to get her back home as soon as possible ( not an emergency, but clearly it warranted better routing).  I got Direct to KSAW immediately.  Have to believe this has more do do with Standard Practice than being routed to clear traffic.

Tom

[bradp]

When that reroute comes there is always the "unable" card... So long as you have a reason.   

Also to avoid the tour you can file an intermediate airport and your destination as an alternate.  When you realize you have enough fuel to the alternate a diversion to it can be used.  

1000-3 is separation for the Tracon notwithstanding wake turbulence issues on takeoff and landing.  Everything else is either SOP/LOA or an effort to get "the crap" as far away from airline traffic as possible.  Negotiation is a useful tool.  So long as you have a reason.  

 

This is not an answer to Chris' question but filing VFR is useful for getting through with a B clearance.  Again negotiation.  Usually if they won't give you a clearance at your altitude state that you are willing to climb or descent and give them an approx flight plan path as to which sector they would have to handoff to and which you wiuld traverse.  I got parallel to the PHL final approach course by 3 mi once using this method.   I also got into snow and inadvertent almost IMC below EWR approach path this way.  I confessed I was marginal VMC and wasn't confident I could call traffic in sight, and the controller was helpful and kept the airliners 500' higher until I could get enough lateral separation to pick up IFR in the air.  So be careful with the sharp tools in the toolbox.  The controllers are the best in the world and are usually really as helpful as they can possibly be so long as you know what you want to do and let them know what you're doing.  

[Marauder]

I flew out of Toughkenamon (N57) years ago, which is just out of KPHL, and it was on a weekend when the FBO was closed (no land line available), no cell phone, and marginal VFR.  I didn't know what to expect with routing, so filed Direct to an airport in Ohio to get fuel.  When I attempted to pull a clearance airborne, the departure controller was pretty pissed.  He said " you expect to get this clearance airborne?  Why didn't you call on the ground?"  I said I tried, but couldn't raise you from the ground.  After much explanation about why I couldn't call before launching, he finally said he was too busy so the best I could get was VFR Flight Following.  I accepted and started scrambling to find an airport to land at. 

About 5 minutes later another controller comes on (obviously a supervisor) and asks me if I am ready to copy and accept an IFR Clearance.  I said yes and he rattles off one with about 10 way points, all of which I had never heard of.  Pissed myself, I read the clearance back twice as fast as he gave it to me.  That changed everything, as they then realized I was not a newbie.  I flew to one way point and then the original controller gave me Direct.   Really?  

Coming out of Detroit on medical flights I always get the scenic tour of the area too.  One time after a pretty crazy routing, I asked departure if he had a second?  When he did, I explained I had a baby on a respirator and would like to get her back home as soon as possible ( not an emergency, but clearly it warranted better routing).  I got Direct to KSAW immediately.  Have to believe this has more do do with Standard Practice than being routed to clear traffic.

Tom

That is my world Tom! Fortunately now the RCO to Philly is supplemented with a landline. The one time I tried to do an air pick-up out of N57 you would have thought I was asking to date his daughter.

Air pick-ups from WNY airports were the norm for me if the weather was good at all. Every time I leave KGVQ the KROC controllers always ask me on the ground if I could do an air pick-up.

[Marauder]

When that reroute comes there is always the "unable" card... So long as you have a reason.   

Also to avoid the tour you can file an intermediate airport and your destination as an alternate.  When you realize you have enough fuel to the alternate a diversion to it can be used.  

1000-3 is separation for the Tracon notwithstanding wake turbulence issues on takeoff and landing.  Everything else is either SOP/LOA or an effort to get "the crap" as far away from airline traffic as possible.  Negotiation is a useful tool.  So long as you have a reason.  

 

This is not an answer to Chris' question but filing VFR is useful for getting through with a B clearance.  Again negotiation.  Usually if they won't give you a clearance at your altitude state that you are willing to climb or descent and give them an approx flight plan path as to which sector they would have to handoff to and which you wiuld traverse.  I got parallel to the PHL final approach course by 3 mi once using this method.   I also got into snow and inadvertent almost IMC below EWR approach path this way.  I confessed I was marginal VMC and wasn't confident I could call traffic in sight, and the controller was helpful and kept the airliners 500' higher until I could get enough lateral separation to pick up IFR in the air.  So be careful with the sharp tools in the toolbox.  The controllers are the best in the world and are usually really as helpful as they can possibly be so long as you know what you want to do and let them know what you're doing.  

I tried the "unable" card one time while I was dealing with moderate turbulence and got a "turn to 360°, proceed direct to Timbuktu."

I think you and Robert are correct it is to keep me away from the heavy iron arrivals and departures. I went back through my old IFR logs for flights to Maine and saw a number of Lake Charles VOR in the routes. Without the ability to navigate directly to a waypoint, sending me a VOR out of the way was the solution. And although I believe the intent is to give me a more direct route by assigning waypoints, the 5 character waypoints make it a much more tedious task.