New bravo owner

[Casey]

So I'm in the final stages of purchasing a bravo. Do you guys have any material, text or video, that I can start studying up on? Ive seen reference to a video of the landing procedure, that would be great to get my hands on. Also checklists or really anything remotely related. I love aviation so I'll pretty much study anything I can get my hands on. Thanks guys and I'm looking forward to being a mooney driver!

[carqwik]

Best advice is to get a Mooney-specific CFII familiar with the Bravo.  The long bodies are a bit different from other Mooney models in some ways...

Tell us where you are based and someone will pipe up with a recommendation.

[carusoam]

Mr. Casey,

What are you transitioning from?  Are you IR?

Tell us that you have contracted with a Mooney specific CFI for transition training.  Or are you doing something different?  MAPA is a good source for these folks.

Don Kaye is the Bravo CFI Landing Video Guy...

1) See if you can get the POH as early in the process as you can... Modern POHs are Hundreds of pages long...

2) See if you can get a copy of the GPS operation manual.  Often available on line. More hundreds of pages long...

3) See if you can get a copy of the AutoPilot operation manual.  Often available on line. Another long document that is worth taking notes on early on.  The HSI is part of this system and is worth studying  to be able to push the proper buttons and rotate the right knobs in the right order.

4) In your free time the MSFS is available on line.  The Mooney they have is a Bravo. It won't teach flying the real thing, but the procedure part is pretty enjoyable.

5) There are weight and balance apps that are nice to have.  Get one and load it with the Bravo's numbers.

6) practice smiling, a lot... These muscles will need as much exercise as they can get. After the first day of TT, you will know what I mean...

7) There are some specific turbo Mooney discussions related to engine operations and maintenance around here that might be found in the Modern Mooney section.  They might be of interest to Bravo owners as well. Know the value of those wonderful exhaust clamps.

All of These documents are great to have on your iPad.  Better than having in the airplane's bookshelf.

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

Don Kaye is the long body Mooney instructor of choice. All American should have his contact information,and some others if your schedules don't mesh.

@donkaye  Maybe this call out will work. New features can be fun!

[Casey]

I'm transitioning from a Cherokee 235. I'm not IR but planning on training in the bravo soon. I have 37 hrs in a Cessna 402 so it won't be my first rodeo with retracts and constant speed prop. As for the transition training I am definitely planning on getting it. I would be a fool not to plus who doesn't like learning all the ins and outs of your new baby. I haven't made arrangements yet but the financing just got approved today and I didn't want to make plans until it was a sure thing. Also I found a pdf version of the POH online and have made my way through most of that. Good idea on the auto pilot manual I hadn't thought of that. Oh and the smile muscles are already getting sore. Thanks for all the help. 

[Bravoman]

I know I will draw fire for saying this but being the owner of a bravo and also a piper I think if it were me I would want to  do my instrument training in the piper. The bravo is a great plane and I love flying it, but even with a healthy number of hours under my belt and many years as an instrument pilot I can't imagine doing my instrument training in the bravo. It is an extremely high performance and demanding aircraft, and in my humble opinion is not the type of plane that is best suited for that type of training with all that one has to focus on to learn  to fly instruments. I know I am not articulating this particularly well, and am sure folks will have different opinions but I am interested to hear what others have to say on this one.

Regards, Frank

[carqwik]

+1.  Best to spend your first 25+ hours learning to fly your new baby...and rent a slow fixed gear single to get your IR.  The thing about the Bravo..as Bravoman tried to say....is that it requires your thought processes to move well ahead of the airplane.  Mixing that up with just trying to learn IFR is going to be a struggle with task overload.  The IR is actually harder than the PPL...

[FlyDave]

I think Bravoman makes some good points.

I was instrument rated with ~850 hours when I bought my J in 2010 and after 17 hours in the plane I thought I could fly it IFR. So one of my prior CFI's safety piloted for me an under the hood I went. Well, I was so far behind that airplane it wasn't funny, in fact it was quite embarrassing. Moving from a Cherokee 140 to a new (slippery) Mooney with constant speed prop and new avionics was a deck stacked against me.

When I moved from the J to the Bravo it took me somewhere around 50 hours to really start to feel comfortable in that plane.

The thing about IFR training is you need to do the flying the plane tasks automatically. Muscle memory has to place your hand on the correct control and make adjustments without thinking about it. You also have to know how to slow the plane down and keep it slow. Barreling down an ILS at 140 knots is not something Don Kaye teaches new students. If you do that unintentionally you're gonna have a rude awakening short final, a real rude awakening!

If you want to get your IR in your Bravo with no prior Bravo time, wait until you have 75-100 hours to start the instrument training. Get to know the airplane so you can stay ahead of it.

I'd like to know what the CFII's think.

[carusoam]

If you break it into parts.  There is...

1) Getting the IR (ten days would be a minimum)  Fun level of constant cognitive overload.  Use a school that will allow you to take a break or two along the way.  The constant overload runs out of fun after a while. Studying for the IR written test is a completely different sport.  Start that as soon as you can to get it out of the way. It requires getting used to tricky questions that are designed in a 1950’S style.

2) Apply it to the specific hardware mounted in the plane.  Three days of MAPA training.  That includes speeds, power settings and things related to IR flight in your Mooney.

3) In this case, there is the desire to have transition training to get used to all the LB Mooney details. Three days with mild cognitive overload on the first day.

4) A friend of mine often reminds me of the importance of density altitude and its effects on take-off performance.  This is an important detail that often gets lost over the years between training and flying.  Review the T/O distance calculations and compare them to your real experiences before loading up the plane on a hot day.

Mapa has some interesting training programs that occur on weekends around the country.  These are mostly attended by Mooney pilots with IR already.  They get the most interesting detailed experience from really interesting Mooney specific CFII pilots.  These training sessions are tailor fit to the individual to cover that pilots needs.

I got my IR after not flying for a year.  Did it in a rented C172.  Then upon that success immediately went out to buy the O.

There is always advice to learn to fly and then fly VFR for a year before moving up to the IR.  This is for safety reasons.  Gaining experience before getting in too deep of a challenge.

The other side of the equation...  A Mooney is a powerful traveling machine.  If you use it, you are going to cover vast distances and cross a few weather boundaries.  Getting some basic IR training underway is going to be helpful.

The challenge that I ran into in my IR training was often being too high and too fast (in a C172).  Doing this in an LB Mooney should be an interesting challenge.  Other people get the IR and have never seen IMC.   (Not recommended)

My PP opinion: Don't wait to get the IR.  Keep in mind it takes a whole lot longer than the few days that transition training does. Don't use the IR in IMC until all the other skills are up to where they need to be.  Then set your personal limits high for safety.

There is so much information to read, understand, memorize and apply.  Don't rush or cut corners to save time or money.

Get started, we'll still be here...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Casey]

This is a great discussion. I originally wanted to get my ir in my cherokee but it is lacking modern instruments and I don't think I wold get the full benifits of the training, i.e. gps and auto pilot portions. I'm not going to jump right into it but I do want to start soon. I have been flying for 6 years now and definatly don't claim to know it all but I do feel that I'm in a place to start the instrument training, at least as far as knowledge goes but as for getting ahead of the bravo that's just a matter of burning fuel and practice. I have gone through the ir ground course more than once just for the knowledge. My thought behind training in the bravo is its just that much more experience in my own bird. No offense but I'm not going to buy a mooney just to turn around and rent a 172 and develop all the cessna habits only to go right back to the mooney. I'm sure it may take a little longer to get in sync with the bravo but I believe it will be worth it in the long run. I don't plan on flying solo into Imc until I have more than just the ir ticket but I do want the knowledge incase the weather changes on me and I find myself above a cloud layer that I can't get through in vfr. Again this is a good discussion and has got me thinking if things that I hadn't considered yet. I think my excitement is clouding some of the realities but that's ok, after all aviation is supposed to be fun and exciting. I'm so blessed to be at a point in my life where this is all possible. 

[Marauder]

This is a great discussion. I originally wanted to get my ir in my cherokee but it is lacking modern instruments and I don't think I wold get the full benifits of the training, i.e. gps and auto pilot portions. I'm not going to jump right into it but I do want to start soon. I have been flying for 6 years now and definatly don't claim to know it all but I do feel that I'm in a place to start the instrument training, at least as far as knowledge goes but as for getting ahead of the bravo that's just a matter of burning fuel and practice. I have gone through the ir ground course more than once just for the knowledge. My thought behind training in the bravo is its just that much more experience in my own bird. No offense but I'm not going to buy a mooney just to turn around and rent a 172 and develop all the cessna habits only to go right back to the mooney. I'm sure it may take a little longer to get in sync with the bravo but I believe it will be worth it in the long run. I don't plan on flying solo into Imc until I have more than just the ir ticket but I do want the knowledge incase the weather changes on me and I find myself above a cloud layer that I can't get through in vfr. Again this is a good discussion and has got me thinking if things that I hadn't considered yet. I think my excitement is clouding some of the realities but that's ok, after all aviation is supposed to be fun and exciting. I'm so blessed to be at a point in my life where this is all possible. 

To add a little different perspective. I have owned my Mooney for 25 years. It is an F and not a Bravo. That said, after 22 years of flying my Mooney IFR with basically a steam system, I upgraded to glass. It took me a good 10 hours to just make the switch from steam to glass -- and I had tons of hours in my Mooney.

I hate to simplify this a bit. My F, a Cherokee and some of the slower planes out there are like learning to drive in your Mom's Buick. A Bravo is like learning how to drive in a Formula 1 racer on the track doing 200 knots.

Can it be done, yep. You will get really frustrated at times because you will be behind the plane a number of times. And this goes for the instructor as well! If they don't know the plane, you will be teaching them to fly it as well.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Hank]

Flying a Bravo will be lots of fun! Good thing you're already exercising your smile muscles.

I bought my Mooney (much less machine than a Bravo) right after getting my PPL. Insurance required 15 hours transition training including 5 hours IMC, from an instruct they approved, or 25 hours dual plus 10 hours solo. I opted for the first. Five weeks after that training ended, I was at a MAPA PPP and flew with a CFII in my plane. We did strictly VFR training, and I learned a lot about how to properly operate my Mooney.

Many friends and instructors advised that I fly the plane for a year, just to get comfortable in it, learn it's systems and habits, before starting IFR training, (This was prior to MooneySpace, but not by very much.) I then took a second year before getting fed up enough to dive in head first. With your experience, you may get there faster, but do take some time to figure out the Bravo, learn the avionics, know your power settings, performance, landings, etc.

Congratulations, and enjoy your new plane!

[mike_elliott]

1 hour ago, Casey said:

This is a great discussion. I originally wanted to get my ir in my cherokee but it is lacking modern instruments and I don't think I wold get the full benifits of the training, i.e. gps and auto pilot portions. I'm not going to jump right into it but I do want to start soon. I have been flying for 6 years now and definatly don't claim to know it all but I do feel that I'm in a place to start the instrument training, at least as far as knowledge goes but as for getting ahead of the bravo that's just a matter of burning fuel and practice. I have gone through the ir ground course more than once just for the knowledge. My thought behind training in the bravo is its just that much more experience in my own bird. No offense but I'm not going to buy a mooney just to turn around and rent a 172 and develop all the cessna habits only to go right back to the mooney. I'm sure it may take a little longer to get in sync with the bravo but I believe it will be worth it in the long run. I don't plan on flying solo into Imc until I have more than just the ir ticket but I do want the knowledge incase the weather changes on me and I find myself above a cloud layer that I can't get through in vfr. Again this is a good discussion and has got me thinking if things that I hadn't considered yet. I think my excitement is clouding some of the realities but that's ok, after all aviation is supposed to be fun and exciting. I'm so blessed to be at a point in my life where this is all possible. 

Casey, where are you located at?

[Casey]

I travel for work but right now I'm in the lubbock tx area

[flyboy0681]

11 hours ago, Bravoman said:

I know I will draw fire for saying this but being the owner of a bravo and also a piper I think if it were me I would want to  do my instrument training in the piper. The bravo is a great plane and I love flying it, but even with a healthy number of hours under my belt and many years as an instrument pilot I can't imagine doing my instrument training in the bravo. It is an extremely high performance and demanding aircraft, and in my humble opinion is not the type of plane that is best suited for that type of training with all that one has to focus on to learn  to fly instruments. I know I am not articulating this particularly well, and am sure folks will have different opinions but I am interested to hear what others have to say on this one.

Regards, Frank

I'm not sure I entirely agree. Although I don't have a Bravo but a J model, I did my instrument in it and after a while I became fully in-tune with it. I know exactly how it should feel and even sound at certain times and what the numbers will be. Seems to me that if I trained in an Archer and then transitioned to my Mooney that I would be behind the curve in having to re-learn a lot. And chances are the Mooney will have better instrumentation than the Piper, such as an HSI. 

Learning from the very first lesson of dealing with the complex systems and speeds simply makes the pilot a part of the machine.

 

Edited February 19, 2016 by flyboy0681

[Oldguy]

I, too, transitioned from a C172 to my J and started my IFR training shortly after I did. The best thing I ever did, though, was taking the MAPA Safety Foundation course to drill into my head all of the speeds and feeds for my specific plane. Yes, I had my IR before the course, but the level of comfort and confidence was so much greater after it, I wished I had done it before my training.

Get the transition training, fly your plane some and get used to spinning cycles in your head much faster than before. If you can, take the MAPA SF course before your IFR training, but either way, fly the plane and enjoy it.

John

[donkaye]

While I got my Private and Commercial many years earlier, I got my instrument rating in 1992 in preparation for possibly buying a Bravo, after seeing one on the cover of Flying Magazine.  One month after getting the rating I found the perfect Bravo and bought it.  I flew it for 50 hours before feeling comfortable enough to ease my way into flying it IMC.  There were no Mooney specific Instructors that I knew of around my area at the time.  I got my CFI and CFII in 1994 and never looked back.  Approximately 5,700 instructing hours and 10,000 since IR hours later I can make some observations.

I have taught the IR to several new to Mooney pilots.  The ones who did well were for the most part young; 32 years down to 26.  One particularly sharp guy was a computer programmer and did the rating in 8 days.  We flew 3 times a day for 2.5 hours each.  Another girl, age 29, did it in her G1000 equipped Ovation with just a little Mooney time.  Older people from my experience poop out before 5 hours per day.  So age does make a difference.

All of the Mooneys can be flown slowly, so it's easy to get caught up with the airplane if you get behind---if you know that you are behind the airplane.  The problem is that those who are behind it don't realize that they are.

In one instance I have checked out a person who had just gotten his Private in a C150.  We did the checkout and the Instrument Rating at the same time.  He was 31 at the time and as sharp as they come.

In another instance I had a student who came to me with 100 hours of instrument time and no rating. He was 67.   I spent another 100 hours with him before he took the practical test.  It was in his Piper 180.  Even though I suggested while training that he probably shouldn't continue he said he didn't care how long it took, he was going to get that rating.  And he did.

I think with the new glass panels, the IR is much, much easier to get.  The scan is simpler and the SA is a piece of cake.  This is unlike the pre GPS era in which I got my rating.

So I would say it depends on the person and their age as to whether and how easy it would be to get the rating in their recently purchased Mooney.  Certainly they could give it a try with an experienced Mooney Specific CFI.  If they were having trouble with the complexity, then they could switch back to a simpler airplane.  My bet is that they would complete the rating in their Mooney.

In the Bravo the IR rating should be integrated with the basic checkout.  Of particular importance is understanding the pitch/power relationship, which is applicable to flying any airplane.

Yes, my landing video has helped many Mooney pilots from the feed back that I have gotten.  I did it with my Bravo, but the techniques work in any airplane.  You can get it by going to my website here: http://www.donkaye.com/donkaye.com/Perfect_Your_Landings.html

 

[Danb]

On February 19, 2016 at 0:16 PM, donkaye said:

While I got my Private and Commercial many years earlier, I got my instrument rating in 1992 in preparation for possibly buying a Bravo, after seeing one on the cover of Flying Magazine.  One month after getting the rating I found the perfect Bravo and bought it.  I flew it for 50 hours before feeling comfortable enough to ease my way into flying it IMC.  There were no Mooney specific Instructors that I knew of around my area at the time.  I got my CFI and CFII in 1994 and never looked back.  Approximately 5,700 instructing hours and 10,000 since IR hours later I can make some observations.

I have taught the IR to several new to Mooney pilots.  The ones who did well were for the most part young; 32 years down to 26.  One particularly sharp guy was a computer programmer and did the rating in 8 days.  We flew 3 times a day for 2.5 hours each.  Another girl, age 29, did it in her G1000 equipped Ovation with just a little Mooney time.  Older people from my experience poop out before 5 hours per day.  So age does make a difference.

All of the Mooneys can be flown slowly, so it's easy to get caught up with the airplane if you get behind---if you know that you are behind the airplane.  The problem is that those who are behind it don't realize that they are.

In one instance I have checked out a person who had just gotten his Private in a C150.  We did the checkout and the Instrument Rating at the same time.  He was 31 at the time and as sharp as they come.

In another instance I had a student who came to me with 100 hours of instrument time and no rating. He was 67.   I spent another 100 hours with him before he took the practical test.  It was in his Piper 180.  Even though I suggested while training that he probably shouldn't continue he said he didn't care how long it took, he was going to get that rating.  And he did.

I think with the new glass panels, the IR is much, much easier to get.  The scan is simpler and the SA is a piece of cake.  This is unlike the pre GPS era in which I got my rating.

So I would say it depends on the person and their age as to whether and how easy it would be to get the rating in their recently purchased Mooney.  Certainly they could give it a try with an experienced Mooney Specific CFI.  If they were having trouble with the complexity, then they could switch back to a simpler airplane.  My bet is that they would complete the rating in their Mooney.

In the Bravo the IR rating should be integrated with the basic checkout.  Of particular importance is understanding the pitch/power relationship, which is applicable to flying any airplane.

Yes, my landing video has helped many Mooney pilots from the feed back that I have gotten.  I did it with my Bravo, but the techniques work in any airplane.  You can get it by going to my website here: http://www.donkaye.com/donkaye.com/Perfect_Your_Landings.html

 

agreed, i got my ppl in a cherokee and then purchased a J model,I decided to implement me transitional training and IFR rating at the same time, I did not care how long it took but wanted to get the best instruction  I could receive and used a Mooney instructor. IMHO in was a good idea and learned how to fly the plane properly then transitioned to the IFR  work, I went directly from PPL to IFR rating right after my check ride. As Don stated were all different and have differing learning curves.,I would just recommend to take your time while learning and try to get instruction more than once a week. I flew 5-6 times per week. Good luck and hope you love your Bravo as much as I do.Also remember your Bravo flies nicely at slow speeds which may allow your brain to catch up to the plane when necessary.

 

[Bravoman]

Don has an interesting  observation. I, too, got my instrument rating before the GPS  era . I think that it was a much much more challenging thing to do in those days. 

[carqwik]

Here's why you need specific Mooney training....the pictures show the damage done to the tail of a later model Ovation done on the very first landing by its new owner.  He flew with a non-Mooney CFI...and the owner was not a novice pilot (10,000+ hour jet jockey)...

This is very unfortunate for the owner...this all happened last week here in Phoenix. 

[Hank]

Son of a biscuit eater!! Tail strike on landing, with CFI aboard! Wonder whose insurance will make that right? Wonder how much of the trim system now needs to be replaced, the whole tail section looks bent. The hinge, the little bitty 1/4" screws, the nice pieces we all just had an AD to inspect for backwards assembly, jack screw, trim wheel, chain . . . Hope it didn't pull the jack screw hard enough to damage the cabin floor yanking on the chain. OMG, what is the jack screw mounted to inside the fuselage???

[aviatoreb]

Wow - bummer.  At least it looks as if it is only a broken ego crash and not a broken bone crash.  I hope that is true.

[CaptainAB]

Hmmm. $25 bucks would have saved him some agony. 

[Awful_Charlie]

1 hour ago, CaptainAB said:

Hmmm. $25 bucks would have saved him some agony. 

as would a tail tie-down loop!