Engine failure of sorts in my Bravo--need advice on what to do

[Bravoman]

1 hour ago, Tony Armour said:

The other side is busted too. I think "cracked" is the wrong use of the word in this case. (Pun not intended !)

Also tons of metal in the screen. Aluminum and steel. Broke my heart just seeing it !

 Tony, I appreciate you going over the shop and looking at it. I guess from what you have seen it lends to the conclusion that the internals are toast ?

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Bravoman said:

 Tony, I appreciate you going over the shop and looking at it. I guess from what you have seen it lends to the conclusion that the internals are toast ?

You won't know until it's opened. If Lyc will take it on trade, then you have some serious thinking to do. If they won't, the decision to split the case has been made and you won't know what you have until you see it.

[Tony Armour]

1 hour ago, Bravoman said:

 Tony, I appreciate you going over the shop and looking at it. I guess from what you have seen it lends to the conclusion that the internals are toast ?

It's still  hard to say. The problem is Lycoming doesn't want it taken apart and for this very reason, they don't want junk parts back but they are willing to risk it if no one has seen them. If the crank is bad, cam is bad, rod iffy then a non factory build "could" be as much or more ? If all is good, then factory may not be the way to go....can't find out until it's disassembled and then it's no good as a core....at least that's the way I understand it. I'm sure Joey has talked about the expense of some of the parts if bad. Cylinders $3,000, case $8,000, crank was $12,000 ?? Someone said rods were $3,000.

I would be surprised if the crank was unusable. The case is imo is not worth repairing, it's not the outside that worries me, it's the inside, lifter bores etc. you can't see. The cam is a toss up with obvious damage at the lifters/cam area.....actually a "toss up" is probably being gracious. Cylinder #2 bore where it goes in the case has been beat up enough that it will have to be forced or beat off.

The best solution may be what Lycoming says, if they will give full or close credit for a core. I'm am by NO means a proponent of a factory engine.....but.....

The other option, time no issue is to disassemble it and hope for the best. Given some time parts may be gathered at lessor expense IF no hurry.

 

[Tony Armour]

It sold, but the TLS non Bravo for sale recently in Fl was under $100k 

if mine exploded and I could buy one like that I might consider and then part out what's left over. It's really crazy that these engines are so many % of the value of our airplanes.

 

Just looking, 1989 w 321 smoh and a fresh top: $140k

1990 w 1090 smoh $135k

1996 w 1775 smoh/TT $125k

1991 w 10 smoh $123k

Its not fair that if you had had an accident and totaled the airplane, you would be in a much better financial position. 

I would be willing to: everyone pay a little more insurance and have a gracious engine prorate paid by insurance for failure like this.

 

 

Edited January 23, 2016 by Tony Armour

[Guest]

I showed the picture to our local engine shop owner, he's seen this before on an Extra 300.  It seems the airplane was regularly lifted with an engine hoist to service the landing gear.  Sounds familiar from another recent thread here.

The area in question is the intake lobe not the exhaust, the double lobes are for the intake valves.

Clarence

[Tony Armour]

Bravoman, were you doing any oil analysis ? 

Im at 1941 TT engine and frame with 700 on a top. LAST MONTH I started an engine fund LOL better late than never ?

After talking with Bravoman this morning, another thing I am going to be aware of and maybe practice a few times is landing with no visibility out the windshield. Even if not covering it, just landing and being of the mind set that you might not be able to see forward would go a long way if you actually ever had to do so.

Edited January 22, 2016 by Tony Armour

[Shadrach]

35 minutes ago, Tony Armour said:

It's still  hard to say. The problem is Lycoming doesn't want it taken apart and for this very reason, they don't want junk parts back but they are willing to risk it if no one has seen them. If the crank is bad, cam is bad, rod iffy then a non factory build "could" be as much or more ? If all is good, then factory may not be the way to go....can't find out until it's disassembled and then it's no good as a core....at least that's the way I understand it. I'm sure Joey has talked about the expense of some of the parts if bad. Cylinders $3,000, case $8,000, crank was $12,000 ?? Someone said rods were $3,000.

I would be surprised if the crank was unusable. The case is imo is not worth repairing, it's not the outside that worries me, it's the inside, lifter bores etc. you can't see. The cam is a toss up with obvious damage at the lifters/cam area.....actually a "toss up" is probably being gracious. Cylinder #2 bore where it goes in the case has been beat up enough that it will have to be forced or beat off.

The best solution may be what Lycoming says, if they will give full or close credit for a core. I'm am by NO means a proponent of a factory engine.....but.....

 

$8000 for a case? Call any one of the many crankcase overhaulers in Tulsa, I am sure that several of them have an overhauled unit in stock. Moreover, and I mean no offense, unless you're in the business of repairing and overhauling aircraft crankcases, your opinion of the repairability of this case is worth about the same or less than what we are all paying.

Edited January 22, 2016 by Shadrach

[KSMooniac]

I have no doubt a new case from Lycoming would be 8 AMU or more.  Certainly a used/serviceable one would be less IF you can find one.  Divco might have some in stock, but who knows.  Ditto for the crankshaft.  Finding good used ones is difficult.

I tried (unsuccessfully) to sell my salvage IO-360 case for a while before trading it in to Divco.  Didn't get much for it, but didn't get any buyer either on the open market.  I bet Divco tagged it and sold it for 3-4x what they gave me for it, but it might have sat on their shelf for a long time first.

[N601RX]

Removing and reinstalling the affected cylinder is relatively easy and quick. It will also tell you a lot about what happened and what else is damaged. I can't imagine that would prevent lycoming from accepting it as a core. 

[Tony Armour]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

I showed the picture to our local engine shop owner, he's seen this before on an Extra 300.  It seems the airplane was regularly lifted with an engine hoist to service the landing gear.  Sounds familiar from another recent thread here.

The area in question is the intake lobe not the exhaust, the double lobes are for the intake valves.

Clarence

Yep, saw that when I got to then plane. 

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

I have no doubt a new case from Lycoming would be 8 AMU or more.  Certainly a used/serviceable one would be less IF you can find one.  Divco might have some in stock, but who knows.  Ditto for the crankshaft.  Finding good used ones is difficult.

I tried (unsuccessfully) to sell my salvage IO-360 case for a while before trading it in to Divco.  Didn't get much for it, but didn't get any buyer either on the open market.  I bet Divco tagged it and sold it for 3-4x what they gave me for it, but it might have sat on their shelf for a long time first.

Perhaps for this particular engine. Back when I was examining my case options, Chuck Ney told me personally that he had a boat load of overhauled 4cyl wide deck, angle valve cases in stock. He told me that in the off chance that mine was not repairable that sourcing an OH'd case would be no problem. IIRC he said ~ 2.5 AMUs. Perhaps things have changed. What did Divco give you for your old case?  I doubt they just tagged it. It was likely dipped, stripped, fixed and line bored.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Shadrach

[Tony Armour]

3 hours ago, Shadrach said:

$8000 for a case? Call any one of the many crankcase overhaulers in Tulsa, I am sure that several of them have an overhauled unit in stock. Moreover, and I mean no offense, unless you're in the business of repairing and overhauling aircraft crankcases, your opinion of the repairability of this case is worth about the same or less than what we are all paying.

$8,000 is me passing along what the Mooney service center told me the cost of a case is and I imagine the same thing Cole told Bravoman. I don't know if that was new or what.

Regarding the case, I have seen my share of busted engines. I did not say it was not repairable. I said it was not IMO worth repairing. I would not.

You really want to risk what is basically a $25,000 to $65,000 decision/engine  on a repaired case ? What's the repair, $2,500+ ? Compared to finding a used for $4,000-$5,000 (purely a guess) or $8,000 for whatever that gets you ? I'm not opposed at all to having a repaired case, but I would not have this one that is busted on each half and WHERE it's busted repaired for what little the cost is to upgrade to another. And we haven't even begun to talk about the safety OR peace of mind in this situation. 

 

Edited January 23, 2016 by Tony Armour

[KSMooniac]

2 hours ago, KSMooniac said: I have no doubt a new case from Lycoming would be 8 AMU or more.  Certainly a used/serviceable one would be less IF you can find one.  Divco might have some in stock, but who knows.  Ditto for the crankshaft.  Finding good used ones is difficult.

I tried (unsuccessfully) to sell my salvage IO-360 case for a while before trading it in to Divco.  Didn't get much for it, but didn't get any buyer either on the open market.  I bet Divco tagged it and sold it for 3-4x what they gave me for it, but it might have sat on their shelf for a long time first.

Perhaps for this particular engine. Back when I was examining my case options, Chuck Ney told me personally that he had a boat load of overhauled 4cyl wide deck, angle valve cases in stock. He told me that in the off chance that mine was not repairable that sourcing an OH'd case would be no problem. IIRC he said ~ 2.5 AMUs. Perhaps things have changed. What did Divco give you for your old case?  I doubt they just tagged it. It was likely dipped, stripped, fixed and line bored.

I only got $500 for mine. It had about 200 smoh and I bet it didn't need any machine work, just the inspection. Who knows, though. I almost kept it for a spare.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

[N601RX]

2 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

I have no doubt a new case from Lycoming would be 8 AMU or more.  Certainly a used/serviceable one would be less IF you can find one.  Divco might have some in stock, but who knows.  Ditto for the crankshaft.  Finding good used ones is difficult.

I tried (unsuccessfully) to sell my salvage IO-360 case for a while before trading it in to Divco.  Didn't get much for it, but didn't get any buyer either on the open market.  I bet Divco tagged it and sold it for 3-4x what they gave me for it, but it might have sat on their shelf for a long time first.

Unfortunately this is a case of it being worthless to most because they don't need it at the given moment.  But for some one who has just received the bad news they would be all over it.  

Divco gave me a quick tour a few years ago when I dropped my parts off.  They had many rows of shelves from the floor to ceiling that was packed full of cases.  I'm guessing close to a thousand.  A very busy shop with 40-50 employees.  I also stopped by Ney's, who also had racks of cases, but he only had 2 employees appeared to be semi retired.  I think I remember reading that he passed away recently.

[aviatoreb]

I made a double take - how is a crank $12000?  What an expensive hunk of metal.

But the idea of buying an airplane for its engine.  Maybe that is a brilliant idea.  Even better a twin. Twin market is even more depressed and they come with TWO engines.  Get two engines and part out the rest?  There are Cessna 340's out there with the same TSIO520nb as my airplane for $99k, for 2 engines and an airplane to part out?   Is there a twin out there with the same lycoming as you Bravo?  Doesn't some version of the aerostar use a lycoming turbo charged?  Maybe go halvsies with some other bravo owner?  Split the engine booty and proceeds of the part out?

[Shadrach]

59 minutes ago, Tony Armour said:

$8,000 is me passing along what the Mooney service center told me the cost of a case is and I imagine the same thing Cole told Bravoman. I don't know if that was new or what.

Regarding the case, I have seen my share of busted engines. I did not say it was not repairable. I said it was not IMO worth repairing. I would not.

You really want to risk what is basically a $25,000 to $65,000 decision/engine  on a repaired case ? What's the repair, $2,500+ ? Compared to finding a used for $4,000-$5,000 (purely a guess) or $8,000 for whatever that gets you ? I'm not opposed at all to having a repaired case, but I would not have this one that is busted on each half and WHERE it's busted repaired for what little the cost is to upgrade to another. And we haven't even begun to talk about the safety OR peace of mind in this situation. 

Before you question my knowledge and thoughts, fly your ass down here and lay hands on it. Or better yet, risk your $40,000 engine and your life (your family) on a decision that saves $2,500. NO OFFENSE :-) (really !)

No offense meant Tony.  Obviously I am out of line.  I mean if it is for the children... Don't you want to spend the most to keep the children safe? Spending less is almost like killing children, it means you don't care...

I'm not flying my ass down there, thank you very much.  I would never, ever tell someone to save a buck at the expense of safety.  The truth is that when it comes to Lycoming products (and Conti as well), I will almost always take a time tested unit that has been overhauled over new... I do not think things are getting better in Williamsport; I think they did their best work in the 70's and 80's.  I have no idea who makes Lycoming's cases, but it sure as shit is not Lycoming.  Almost nothing has been fabricated in Williamsport since the early 90s.  So excuse me if rather than take the word of the guy who's "seen his share of busted up engines", I think that it's wiser to seek the advice of any number of the Tulsa based crankcase overhaulers that have been doing nothing but modifying, strengthening, repairing and overhauling aircraft crankcases longer than I've been around.   Perhaps that makes me the CB...the CB that also had a case crack on the parting flange of his own engine...the CB that spent time on the phone with 5 different case overhaulers learning about the processes...the CB who was personally involved in the teardown and repair from beginning to end. Given all of that, all I this CB is saying is to consult an unbiased expert, maybe two.  No one here, including you, knows the condition of the engine's internals or the repairability of that case.  You're the guy "who's seen his fair share of busted engines" saying that it's not repairable and that buying a case from Mooney...er uh Lycoming...er um...whomever is making cases for lycoming is the safest bet...for the children.  

I say do the smart thing if that leaves some extra cash on the table, use it to beef up the kids college fund or maybe buy another shiny blue penis with wheels! 

Edited January 23, 2016 by Shadrach

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, KSMooniac said:

I only got $500 for mine. It had about 200 smoh and I bet it didn't need any machine work, just the inspection. Who knows, though. I almost kept it for a spare.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

 

1 hour ago, N601RX said:

Unfortunately this is a case of it being worthless to most because they don't need it at the given moment.  But for some one who has just received the bad news they would be all over it.  

Divco gave me a quick tour a few years ago when I dropped my parts off.  They had many rows of shelves from the floor to ceiling that was packed full of cases.  I'm guessing close to a thousand.  A very busy shop with 40-50 employees.  I also stopped by Ney's, who also had racks of cases, but he only had 2 employees appeared to be semi retired.  I think I remember reading that he passed away recently.

Chuck died about a year ago. I spoke with him on 2 occasions. I elected to use an alternate overhauler because my engine shop had a relationship. Chuck was a solid no BS kind of a guy on the phone.  I was sorry to learn of his passing.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Shadrach

[jetdriven]

4 hours ago, N601RX said:

Removing and reinstalling the affected cylinder is relatively easy and quick. It will also tell you a lot about what happened and what else is damaged. I can't imagine that would prevent lycoming from accepting it as a core. 

We pulled two jugs off the right side when our engine started making metal. You can see ally he can lobes and lifters that way. Anyway we put it back together and lycoming took it for a core.  Now a cracked case they may refuse it, or deduct some money.  It must a complete operable engine.  Ours looked operable.  This one, perhaps not.  What they do is scrap the cases when they get them because the roller cam cases are different.  Also because they don't build engines with repaired and welded cases. But that doesn't deter them from knocking 5 or 8 grand off due to the unairworthy case your sent them. 

[Tony Armour]

58 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

No offense meant Tony.  Obviously I am out of line.  I mean if it is for the children... Don't you want to spend the most to keep the children safe? Spending less is almost like killing children, it means you don't care...

I'm not flying my ass down there, thank you very much.  I would never, ever tell someone to save a buck at the expense of safety.  The truth is that when it comes to Lycoming products (and Conti as well), I will almost always take a time tested unit that has been overhauled over new... I do not think things are getting better in Williamsport; I think they did their best work in the 70's and 80's.  I have no idea who makes Lycoming's cases, but it sure as shit is not Lycoming.  Almost nothing has been fabricated in Williamsport since the early 90s.  So excuse me if rather than take the word of the guy who's "seen his share of busted up engines", I think that it's wiser to seek the advice of any number of the Tulsa based crankcase overhaulers that have been doing nothing but modifying, strengthening, repairing and overhauling aircraft crankcases longer than I've been around.   Perhaps that makes me the CB...the CB that also had a case crack on the parting flange of his own engine...the CB that spent time on the phone with 5 different case overhaulers learning about the processes...the CB who was personally involved in the teardown and repair from beginning to end. Given all of that, all I this CB is saying is to consult an unbiased expert, maybe two.  No one here, including you, knows the condition of the engine's internals or the repairability of that case.  You're the guy "who's seen his fair share of busted engines" saying that it's not repairable and that buying a case from Mooney...er uh Lycoming...er um...whomever is making cases for lycoming is the safest bet...for the children.  

I say do the smart thing if that leaves some extra cash on the table, use it to beef up the kids college fund or maybe buy another shiny blue penis with wheels! 

Please point out where I said the case is not repairable. I'll wait.

You or anyone is a moron if you would take THIS case, repair both halves instead of spending another $2,000 to $4,000 on a replacement. And again, like you want to put words in my mouth, I'm not necessarily proposing to buy new. You can read, right ?

If we do get to see the inside, it will be fun :-) And PLEASE pick your best guy so he can give a repair estimate. Since you have been "involved" (wow) in a teardown and and repair of AN engine I'm guessing you could even show Joey Cole and the actual mechanics in the Mooney Service Center a thing or two. On this particular case,  they are also full of shit, according to you.

Regarding the penis, just bought a new model a few weeks ago so we are good to go there. But it's my wife's, when you come down I'll ask her to take you for a ride and you can explain to her about her shiny new penis.

 

[Tony Armour]

4 hours ago, N601RX said:

Removing and reinstalling the affected cylinder is relatively easy and quick. It will also tell you a lot about what happened and what else is damaged. I can't imagine that would prevent lycoming from accepting it as a core. 

The shop said that the cylinder must be damaged where it goes in the case, and wouldn't come off. They had the nuts off the studs and pulled slightly away from the case. I didn't ask just how hard they tried, pryed or beat on it.

If it were mine, I would have gotten the pry bar out. But it isn't so I didn't start grabbing tools :-)

[Shadrach]

33 minutes ago, Tony Armour said:

Please point out where I said the case is not repairable. I'll wait.

You or anyone is a moron if you would take THIS case, repair both halves instead of spending another $2,000 to $4,000 on a replacement. And again, like you want to put words in my mouth, I'm not necessarily proposing to buy new. You can read, right ?

If we do get to see the inside, it will be fun :-) And PLEASE pick your best guy so he can give a repair estimate. Since you have been "involved" (wow) in a teardown and and repair of AN engine I'm guessing you could even show Joey Cole and the actual mechanics in the Mooney Service Center a thing or two. On this particular case,  they are also full of shit, according to you.

Regarding the penis, just bought a new model a few weeks ago so we are good to go there. But it's my wife's, when you come down I'll ask her to take you for a ride and you can explain to her about her shiny new penis.

I've no desire to ask your wife about her penis!  I didn't see Joey Cole's opinion rendered here, I saw yours. I've  never worked with Joey, but look forward to learning what he finds!  

No hard feelings on my end. I was not trying to be a prick. Maybe I'm just sensitive because of the bad advice I was given. I wasn't on MS when my case cracked. However, I was on AOPA's red board. Everyone and their mother told me it was time for new engine, some of them A&Ps. I'm glad I sought advice independently.

[Bravoman]

6 hours ago, Tony Armour said:

It sold, but the TLS non Bravo for sale recently in Fl was under $100k 

if mine exploded and I could buy one like that I might consider and then part out what's left over. It's really crazy that these engines are so many % of the value of our airplanes.

 

Just looking, 1989 w 321 smoh and a fresh top: $140k

1990 w 1090 smoh $135k

1996 w 1775 smoh/TT $125k

1991 w 10 smoh $123k

Its not fair that if you had had an accident and totaled the airplane, you would be in a much better financial position. 

I would be willing to: everyone pay a little more insurance and have a gracious engine prorate paid by insurance for failure like this.

 

 

I really don't see parting out my plane as a viable option. It is a low time pristine airframe and I bought it right factoring in that it was a high time engine from the standpoint of the number of years in service since new in 1998. Even if I put in a factory new engine(as opposed to a reman)  I would be at about 1/3 the cost of a new Acclaim. I plan on keeping the plane till my flying days are over so even if a reman is in order I'm not viewing it as the end of the world. As to the credit for the core, still waiting to hear whether Lycoming will treat me as the loyal customer I think I've always been.....

 

Regards, Frank

[Tony Armour]

31 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I've no desire to ask your wife about her penis!  I didn't see Joey Cole's opinion rendered here, I saw yours. I've  never worked with Joey, but look forward to learning what he finds!  

No hard feelings on my end. I was not trying to be a prick. Maybe I'm just sensitive because of the bad advice I was given. I wasn't on MS when my case cracked. However, I was on AOPA's red board. Everyone and their mother told me it was time for new engine, some of them A&Ps. I'm glad I sought advice independently.

No problem. Some info I was just passing along....by way of my thoughts were in line with thiers....to a point.

I"think" the shop would rather have a factory engine....just easier I guess. I imagine you and I would get along, I take a lot of ribbing from non aviation folks about being a CB in most aspects of life. I myself will never have a factory engine if I can help it. If you could see some things I do, have done on cars CB style that work as well as what others pay  $$ for you would be proud. I'm talking high horsepower/race type stuff.

If it were mine, I would have already split the case and figured out what I could use, what I needed and the best value to get there. I believe we agree on all except the case and we won't know until it's split, if it's split. I would love to see the case repairable for Bravoman. All I'm saying is that from what can be seen now it may not be a pretty picture inside, Cole agrees. If they have to start repairing lifter bores on both halves and the outside of both, the repair bill may be too close to a replacement to be cost efficient, time also considered. I'm saying that because these aren't just cracks, something was trying to get out of both sides. I have doubts about finding a used case, I hope there are plenty because I may need one some time.

I'll admit that when I came out of the shop from seeing it all in person I had a little different view from what I knew going in. I got to see that the other case half was busted and they had just dumped all the metal out of the screen. The filter was also a nightmare as could be expected from what the screen looked like. I did not expect to see near as much metal. Crazy, but someone asked me 30 minutes later if something was wrong. I think I was still sick inside from seeing it, hitting so close to home. I have to stop and think as bad as it is, all turned out well. Bravoman did a great job getting back on the ground safely and at his normal shop. There was zero visibility out the front.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Tony Armour

[Tony Armour]

31 minutes ago, Bravoman said:

I really don't see parting out my plane as a viable option. It is a low time pristine airframe and I bought it right factoring in that it was a high time engine from the standpoint of the number of years in service since new in 1998. Even if I put in a factory new engine(as opposed to a reman)  I would be at about 1/3 the cost of a new Acclaim. I plan on keeping the plane till my flying days are over so even if a reman is in order I'm not viewing it as the end of the world. As to the credit for the core, still waiting to hear whether Lycoming will treat me as the loyal customer I think I've always been.....

 

Regards, Frank

Oh I agree. If I were to do something crazy like that, I would probably have to rob the engine and part the other airplane. Somehow I get attached to cars and airplanes :-)

I guess the point I was trying to make is that I think it's crazy that the/a replacement  engine is so costly when compared to a complete airplane. No, we aren't there yet but if the price of complete planes like ours keeps coming down and engine costs keep going up...one day....it might work. That said, the value of mine since purchased in 2008? while a decent deal then has dropped a bunch. That doesn't bother me so much because I don't plan to sell anytime or like you, ever while I'm flying. The engine stuff does bother me.

 

[LANCECASPER]

On 1/22/2016 at 4:34 PM, Shadrach said:

You won't know until it's opened. If Lyc will take it on trade, then you have some serious thinking to do. If they won't, the decision to split the case has been made and you won't know what you have until you see it.

Highly doubtful that they'll take it as a core (Section A, point 4 on the service letter below):

 

lycoming service letter 250.pdf