Accurate Fuel Gauge Interest

[HRM]

I have an MVP-50 and have found the fuel indicators to be "acceptable" and the fuel totalizing to be "exceptional".

What really works for me, however, and is far safer and more accurate than any gauges or senders that I could put in my E, is my BEA.

The BEA never, ever causes an issue with insufficient fuel for any flight that I might take. Just a godsend in so many ways that I would not be without it.

[hoot777]

The GA manufacturers and the FAA should be ashamed of themselves. My Ford tractor has a better fuel quantity system than my Mooney. The fuel flow stuff is good but what if your tank leaks ??? It happened to my dad. Fortunately he made a precautionary landing and found his left tank bone dry. The fuel drain had fell off.  Rare but it can happen.

[carusoam]

Hoot,

How old is your ford tractor? 

For anyone else,

Some things to consider...

1) With a FF/Totalizer... you get good numbers for fuel used...

2) With Cies FuelLevel gauges... you get Good numbers for fuel still in the tank...

3) When these numbers mis match... you have a known leak... or didn’t reset something...

 

So... fuel used or leaked may not be that important for a tractor...
 

 if it is, it can get a FF sensor and Cies gauges...

 

We can complain about what the Mooney factory put in the plane originally... but we know they had no intention of building planes that last 50years...  

This thread is even older than Cies gauges are...
 

Now... we have two methods of measuring fuel on board... that are better than original...
 

... and we can connect the GPS to the JPI to automatically determine fuel required to destination...

Can it get any better than that? 
 

Accuracy of modern FF and FL devices is incredible...

Accuracy of original FL devices in the 90s was probably +/- 5 or 10 gal... depending on the pilot’s skill at reading analog gauges...
 

PP thoughts only, not a plane manufacturer...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Ragsf15e]

34 minutes ago, hoot777 said:

The GA manufacturers and the FAA should be ashamed of themselves. My Ford tractor has a better fuel quantity system than my Mooney. The fuel flow stuff is good but what if your tank leaks ??? It happened to my dad. Fortunately he made a precautionary landing and found his left tank bone dry. The fuel drain had fell off.  Rare but it can happen.

Yes, the 50 year old “traditional” fuel sensor systems are not good, however, any of the newer EIS systems (JPI 900, 930, Garmin, etc) can be paired with digital CIES fuel senders for an exact reading.

 I have a JPI 930 paired with the original (overhauled) sensor and it’s accurate to within a gallon and backed up by the separate fuel flow totalizer.

[Bob - S50]

57 minutes ago, hoot777 said:

The GA manufacturers and the FAA should be ashamed of themselves. My Ford tractor has a better fuel quantity system than my Mooney. The fuel flow stuff is good but what if your tank leaks ??? It happened to my dad. Fortunately he made a precautionary landing and found his left tank bone dry. The fuel drain had fell off.  Rare but it can happen.

It's not the manufacturers and FAA that should be ashamed, it's the owners who are (understandably) unwilling to spend the money to put in a system that works.  I suspect the newer aircraft being built either already do (cirrus) or will eventually come with accurate systems.

[carusoam]

Unfortunately... the Cies guy comes around to tell us how many Cies systems he has sold through Cirrus... apparently standard for their new aircraft...

There are many MSers that have added Cies to their ships... and got a few bugs worked out...

By the time you have added a JPI 900, you have probably followed up with a set of Cies too...

It can be challenging to come up with the funds for all that... and put food on the table the same month.

PP thoughts only, not an economist...

Best regards,

-a-

[ArtVandelay]

Wide shallow irregular shape tanks are always going to more difficult to get accurate readings using float systems, the 2 senders were supposed to help but it’s still a challenge compared to nice square tanks found in tractors/cars.

[carusoam]

Good point Tom!

Some Mooney tanks are more irregular than others...

The Cies gauges can actually be programmed to cover the variations as it can map the tanks one gallon at a time if you so desire...

Some tanks have some quirkiness added to them... some but not all,( not even that many...)speed brakes occupy space in the fuel tanks... some extended Tanks are separate from the original tanks... some tanks are a multiple bladder systems...

Most tanks have some quirkiness at the top with a curved surface...

All float systems run into a challenge as the float reaches the limits of the top and bottom of the tank...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[hoot777]

1979 ford 3600.  Good machine. I flew a B55 Baron a few years back and Beech paid to fix the lousy fluctuating guages that were like windshield wipers. I seen to remember a box about the size of a wooden Match box that housed the circuitry that fixed the problem. This was around 1980. It can be done. I’m a retired airline guy and the steps taken to assure accuracy of fuel on board. Are pretty amazing. One reason 121 flying is so safe.

[Ragsf15e]

13 hours ago, hoot777 said:

1979 ford 3600.  Good machine. I flew a B55 Baron a few years back and Beech paid to fix the lousy fluctuating guages that were like windshield wipers. I seen to remember a box about the size of a wooden Match box that housed the circuitry that fixed the problem. This was around 1980. It can be done. I’m a retired airline guy and the steps taken to assure accuracy of fuel on board. Are pretty amazing. One reason 121 flying is so safe.

Not sure how the original gauges were on the B-707s, but that’s similar vintage to our 60s Mooney.  There’s plenty of good equipment for that these days and it’s not even cost prohibitive, but I wouldn’t wait for the Mooney Corporation to fix it for you...

[carusoam]

Hoot’s tractor is much newer than my M20C... 

-a-

 

[Missile=Awesome]

On 7/12/2020 at 11:21 AM, hoot777 said:

The GA manufacturers and the FAA should be ashamed of themselves. My Ford tractor has a better fuel quantity system than my Mooney. The fuel flow stuff is good but what if your tank leaks ??? It happened to my dad. Fortunately he made a precautionary landing and found his left tank bone dry. The fuel drain had fell off.  Rare but it can happen.

Is there even one documented accident scenario where fuel leaked (whether from tank or fuel line/system failure) where the pilot was unaware and an off field landing/accident resulted in all of General Aviation, not necessarily Mooney specific?  There are lots of fuel mismanagement accidents, but can someone share a documented account of this impending crisis?  I would very much like to read about that.  Thanks in advance for sharing.  The fear factor is a powerful motivator.  I’ll take some data before I spend thousands for that wiz bang upgrade “fear fix”.

[Missile=Awesome]

On 7/12/2020 at 11:21 AM, hoot777 said:

The GA manufacturers and the FAA should be ashamed of themselves. My Ford tractor has a better fuel quantity system than my Mooney. The fuel flow stuff is good but what if your tank leaks ??? It happened to my dad. Fortunately he made a precautionary landing and found his left tank bone dry. The fuel drain had fell off.  Rare but it can happen.

So in your fathers scenario the tank did not read empty when the tank was empty because of a poorly maintained sump drain?  Was this a Mooney?  My 1980 tank gauges have no significant swing and they read accurately.  I have a low fuel light in addition to the gauges.  I guess beech from that period sucked.

[Bob - S50]

1 hour ago, Missile=Awesome said:

So in your fathers scenario the tank did not read empty when the tank was empty because of a poorly maintained sump drain?  Was this a Mooney?  My 1980 tank gauges have no significant swing and they read accurately.  I have a low fuel light in addition to the gauges.  I guess beech from that period sucked.

If I'm not mistaken, the fuel low lights are based on the float readings.  They are not two independent systems.  If the float stops working for the gauge, it also stops working for the low light.

[Missile=Awesome]

3 minutes ago, Bob - S50 said:

If I'm not mistaken, the fuel low lights are based on the float readings.  They are not two independent systems.  If the float stops working for the gauge, it also stops working for the low light.

If I in any way made you think that I thought the floats (gauges) and the annunciation lights were independent systems I apologize.  Not my intention or belief.

[Bob - S50]

4 hours ago, Missile=Awesome said:

If I in any way made you think that I thought the floats (gauges) and the annunciation lights were independent systems I apologize.  Not my intention or belief.

No problem.  There are lots of ways to monitor fuel level:

Fuel counters on an engine monitor is great IF we take the time to calibrate it accurately AND IF we take the time to enter the correct amount of fuel before flight.

Fuel burn and time work great IF we  operate the same way every time AND IF we remember to operate that way (vs forgetting to lean because we got distracted) AND IF we know how much gas we started with.

Having a good fuel counter, accurate fuel gauges, and good planning all combine to reduce the odds of accidentally running out of fuel.

If someone fills the tanks every time and never flies for more than 2 or 3 hours, then they probably don't need to worry about any of that.

Edited July 14, 2020 by Bob - S50