Not the way to start a white christmas ski trip!

[kortopates]

 http://denver.cbslocal.com/2015/12/23/small-plane-crashes-into-snowplow-at-telluride-airport/#.Vns40vtzs6g.facebook

 

The runway closure is clearly notam’d  from 22:56 today to tomorrow 2000.

Thank goodness no injuries but I’d hate to explain this one to the FAA; especially since they’re saying the plane didn’t call on the CTAF before landing!

Very surprising Denver Center didn’t save them yet still managed to clear them for the approach – they’ll likely share in the blame.

[peevee]

Before he was issued the approach the pilot was asked if he had the current notams for tex, I guarantee it. He said yes... 

[Guitarmaster]

Got to check notams! Glad all survived..

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[MyNameIsNobody]

Garp (Robin Williams) would say "Let's Go Ski"!  What are the chances of anyone getting hurt.

Glad everyone survived.  Especially the pilots.  They got some 'spraining to do.

I bet the Plow driver had to clean more than the runway after that shift...

[PTK]

 

 

[Danb]

7 hours ago, PTK said:

 

 

 

7 hours ago, PTK said:

 

 

Peter and it's a mere 73* in your neck of the woods, time for spring cleaning!

Edited December 24, 2015 by Danb

[aviatoreb]

Here at the Canadian Border.....it was 65F today - I went mtn bike in shorts then I went sea kayaking.

[cliffy]

Wait? He couldn't SEE the snow plow?  It's BIG, It's Yellow,  what else is there? OH ya, It's on the runway!

[peevee]

Guess he canceled and went in vfr. 

[PTK]

Does anyone else find it odd that center cleared him for an approach to the single runway airport which happened to be notamed closed? Is that not strange?

For example, I go shooting practice approaches up at PNE sometimes and when I ask PHL for the approach I want they will tell me if that runway is not in use and which is. 

They destroyed a beautiful airplane in the process but certainly glad they're all ok! 

[peevee]

40 minutes ago, PTK said:

Does anyone else find it odd that center cleared him for an approach to the single runway airport which happened to be notamed closed? Is that not strange?

What part of he cancelled ifr and landed vfr didn't make sense? The only thing he was cleared to do was squawk vfr... The rest is on him. 

There are other details and circumstances I won't get into. It's a combination of bad timing and not bothering with ctaf it sounds like that got him. 

Edited December 24, 2015 by peevee

[aviatoreb]

65F today on the Border with Canada.

 

[PTK]

3 hours ago, peevee said:

What part of he cancelled ifr and landed vfr didn't make sense? The only thing he was cleared to do was squawk vfr... The rest is on him. 

There are other details and circumstances I won't get into. It's a combination of bad timing and not bothering with ctaf it sounds like that got him. 

I wasn't aware he cancelled ifr. But even so before cutting him loose wouldn't they mention to him the runway closure? They knew that was his filed destination, no?

[drapo]

2 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

65F today on the Border with Canada.

 

Yeah I was planning to go flying when I saw the bright blue skies but then I looked at the METAR and it showed 16°C, but I just didn't want to test these winds, but some of my friends did... on the golf course : CYUL 241900Z 23030G45KT 30SM FEW045 FEW140 BKN240 16/06 A2968

 

[peevee]

2 hours ago, PTK said:

I wasn't aware he cancelled ifr. But even so before cutting him loose wouldn't they mention to him the runway closure? They knew that was his filed destination, no?

You're assuming he was still on frequency when the notamed came out. He wasn't. There was also a notam for PPR and a freq to contact.....  You would think they would do so. They didn't. 

Edited December 25, 2015 by peevee

[MHemperly]

Check the notams check the notams check the notams. Bottom line is he didn't. Nothing falls back on ATC. Who knows they could have been super busy at the moment and missed it. They're human too. Regardless he went in uncontrolled on top of that canceled ifr. Pour airplane. Glad everyone is okay though. The price of the plane isn't anywhere near the cost of the lives. I'm assuming they will be very thankful this Christmas! 

Mike

[DAVIDWH]

Sometimes you play golf, other times

you just gotta ski.

Not sure about their happy new year??

[Guitarmaster]

Does anyone else find it odd that center cleared him for an approach to the single runway airport which happened to be notamed closed? Is that not strange?

For example, I go shooting practice approaches up at PNE sometimes and when I ask PHL for the approach I want they will tell me if that runway is not in use and which is. 

They destroyed a beautiful airplane in the process but certainly glad they're all ok! 

Not as uncommon as you might think. We had one of our airplanes get cleared for an approach to a closed runway in Flint Michigan very recently. Luckily, the crew realized there was something amiss and went around.

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[cnoe]

On December 24, 2015 at 4:43 PM, PTK said:

Does anyone else find it odd that center cleared him for an approach to the single runway airport which happened to be notamed closed? Is that not strange?

For example, I go shooting practice approaches up at PNE sometimes and when I ask PHL for the approach I want they will tell me if that runway is not in use and which is. 

They destroyed a beautiful airplane in the process but certainly glad they're all ok! 

6 months ago I'd have considered it odd, but then flying into Tullahoma for the AOPA Fly-in in October Memphis Center gave me vectors and clearance for the RNAV 36 approach in sucky weather after dark. We broke out fairly low announcing intentions on the CTAF and when no runway lights were visible at MDA I went missed. A kind soul on the radio suggested Rwy 6 and we circled to land without issue. It turned out that a DC3 had been parked at the approach end of 36 and the runway had been closed, all while we were in the air dodging severe thunderstorms. I'd checked notams on the ground at the previous fuel stop and Center was obviously unaware of the closure as well. Being an uncontrolled airport there was no ATIS either. I'm not sure if my Foreflight ADS-B info mentioned the closure in flight but it (the closure NOTAM) finally showed up on the ground after landing. I no longer trust ATC to give me accurate info at uncontrolled fields.

[peevee]

40 minutes ago, cnoe said:

6 months ago I'd have considered it odd, but then flying into Tullahoma for the AOPA Fly-in in October Memphis Center gave me vectors and clearance for the RNAV 36 approach in sucky weather after dark. We broke out fairly low announcing intentions on the CTAF and when no runway lights were visible at MDA I went missed. A kind soul on the radio suggested Rwy 6 and we circled to land without issue. It turned out that a DC3 had been parked at the approach end of 36 and the runway had been closed, all while we were in the air dodging severe thunderstorms. I'd checked notams on the ground at the previous fuel stop and Center was obviously unaware of the closure as well. Being an uncontrolled airport there was no ATIS either. I'm not sure if my Foreflight ADS-B info mentioned the closure in flight but it (the closure NOTAM) finally showed up on the ground after landing. I no longer trust ATC to give me accurate info at uncontrolled fields.

So, you're telling me there was no notam out, and somehow center is supposed to know that whoever decided to close the runway did so without telling them, but somehow they were supposed to tell you what they don't know? 

[N601RX]

This many not have came into play here, but what is the average experience level on these charters assuming this flight was a charter.  The few I've been on seemed to be either very young crews who looked to barely be out of high school or older guys who were perhaps retired airline guys who wanted to keep flying.

[peevee]

23 minutes ago, N601RX said:

This many not have came into play here, but what is the average experience level on these charters assuming this flight was a charter.  The few I've been on seemed to be either very young crews who looked to barely be out of high school or older guys who were perhaps retired airline guys who wanted to keep flying.

I believe these guys were foreigners. 

[cnoe]

40 minutes ago, cnoe said: 6 months ago I'd have considered it odd, but then flying into Tullahoma for the AOPA Fly-in in October Memphis Center gave me vectors and clearance for the RNAV 36 approach in sucky weather after dark. We broke out fairly low announcing intentions on the CTAF and when no runway lights were visible at MDA I went missed. A kind soul on the radio suggested Rwy 6 and we circled to land without issue. It turned out that a DC3 had been parked at the approach end of 36 and the runway had been closed, all while we were in the air dodging severe thunderstorms. I'd checked notams on the ground at the previous fuel stop and Center was obviously unaware of the closure as well. Being an uncontrolled airport there was no ATIS either. I'm not sure if my Foreflight ADS-B info mentioned the closure in flight but it (the closure NOTAM) finally showed up on the ground after landing. I no longer trust ATC to give me accurate info at uncontrolled fields.

So, you're telling me there was no notam out, and somehow center is supposed to know that whoever decided to close the runway did so without telling them, but somehow they were supposed to tell you what they don't know? 

Certainly they can't tell me what they don't know. After landing and going to LTE internet the NOTAM (closure) was on Foreflight. I'm not certain that it didn't show up during the approach procedure through my FIS-B data link (and that uncertainty is my own failure). As a relatively new Instrument pilot what I learned (and wanted to share) is that just because you receive an approach/landing clearance it doesn't guarantee that the runway won't have a DC3 (or a snowplow) sitting on it. At the MAP you better be looking to see what's in front of you, and be ready to go missed if it ain't pretty.

It may or may not be a failure of the system but I think ATC should get timely information on runway closures and not issue such clearances if at all possible.

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[peevee]

1 hour ago, cnoe said:

Certainly they can't tell me what they don't know. After landing and going to LTE internet the NOTAM (closure) was on Foreflight. I'm not certain that it didn't show up during the approach procedure through my FIS-B data link (and that uncertainty is my own failure). As a relatively new Instrument pilot what I learned (and wanted to share) is that just because you receive an approach/landing clearance it doesn't guarantee that the runway won't have a DC3 (or a snowplow) sitting on it. At the MAP you better be looking to see what's in front of you, and be ready to go missed if it ain't pretty.

It may or may not be a failure of the system but I think ATC should get timely information on runway closures and not issue such clearances if at all possible.

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And as I've mentioned at least three times in this thread he canceled ifr and went ahead on his own. 

Center usually doesn't take responsibility to disseminate notams, hence the question to you have the atis/notams for kxxx before giving you an approach clearance. 

 

It's entirely possible for the apt manage to close the field with no notice and not call the center to tell them, as I suspect is the case here. Center is not the notam clearing house, FSS is. Center won't clear you for an approach if they know the runway is closed, but they might not know. Hence the questions. 

 

If you cancel, don't call on ctaf, don't call for prior permission  as requested... Well.... 

Edited December 26, 2015 by peevee

[cnoe]

1 hour ago, cnoe said: Certainly they can't tell me what they don't know. After landing and going to LTE internet the NOTAM (closure) was on Foreflight. I'm not certain that it didn't show up during the approach procedure through my FIS-B data link (and that uncertainty is my own failure). As a relatively new Instrument pilot what I learned (and wanted to share) is that just because you receive an approach/landing clearance it doesn't guarantee that the runway won't have a DC3 (or a snowplow) sitting on it. At the MAP you better be looking to see what's in front of you, and be ready to go missed if it ain't pretty.

It may or may not be a failure of the system but I think ATC should get timely information on runway closures and not issue such clearances if at all possible.

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And as I've mentioned at least three times in this thread he canceled ifr and went ahead on his own. 

Center usually doesn't take responsibility to disseminate notams, hence the question to you have the atis/notams for kxxx before giving you an approach clearance. 

I absolutely agree; if you cancel IFR and go VFR then ATC has no responsibility to notify you of runway closures. This appears to be the case in Colorado.

But if you're on an IFR flight plan, checked notams at your last stop, and are in IMC on a vectored approach then ATC should do their very best not to give you an approach clearance to a closed runway. But even then the ultimate responsibility for the safe completion of a flight is on the shoulders of the PIC (thus my "I don't trust ATC" comment).

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