Ripped off from my annual inspection

[rblauson]

I have a 1977 J model that went into a local shop where I live for my annual. The IA I typically use wasn't available this year so I had to use this company to do it. Reputation seemingly decent based on what little I knew. My airplane ends up there for 4 months. They wanted 9k for the standard annual portion which included a ton of labor hour charges that were ridiculous. They damaged my paint when inspecting for a fuel leak on one side. And regularly worked on other airplanes while relegating mine to the " side". One of the reasons why the annual took 4 months. Today is the first day I'll be test flying it, but they still have left a variety of things undone. I could use some advice on how to handle this. Thanks !

 

 

 

[PMcClure]

Have you paid them yet? Did they sign the annual off in the log book?

 

[jetdriven]

See, another 9k all you can eat buffet annual.  

[ArtVandelay]

1. Inspection should always be a flat rate.

2. Don't pay then until you've inspected the plane and have gotten log book stickies.

3. Post their name so the rest of us boycott them.

4. If you are test flying it, it better be airworthy and I would require seeing the invoice and logbook entries before I did the test flight.

Probably should have asked these ?s 4 months ago.

[Shadrach]

I understand that you're upset. Many on this board have had issues with maintenance facilities...However, you've not provided any real evidence or facts associated with the interaction that you are claiming was a rip off.  What was performed in addition to the annual?  The annual is simply an inspection and should take 15 to 20hrs (most shops will spend a bit more time on a bird the first time they see it).  If what you mean by "$9K for the Standard Annual Portion" is that they charged you $9K for an inspection, well that is beyond a rip-off. However, I don't think that's likely, so how about some additional info?  What maintenance are they claiming they performed beyond the inspection?  The inspection alone with no corrective action should run from $1200 to $2000 depending on geographic location.

[flyboy0681]

A classic case of not knowing enough to know enough. Little consolation at this point, but before undergoing your first annual you should have done some research, and this site would have been a great place to start since there's a wealth of information available here from seasoned pros as well as owners like you and me.

What I have learned over the years is to always get a ballpark estimate upfront. If they quoted $2k and then presented you with a bill for $9k without keeping you informed of what they were doing (read Blank Check) and what was needed, then something is not kosher. For example, if they replaced the mags for several grand and didn't ask you first, then you'll have to put up a stink and hope they will take the labor charges off (but doubtful). Our annual typically costs between $1,400 and $1,700, based on items that need to be dealt with at the time. I've read here on MS that most pay about that for a J model.

The other thing you need to do, and I'm sure you will do moving forward, is to stop in and check on the progress and press them for a completion date. For a dedicated A&P I think the job should be completed inside a week. The greasy wheel gets the grease.

Sorry to hear about this situation but unfortunately it's not that uncommon.

 

 

 

 

[jetdriven]

Blank out your address and post the invoice. 

[flyboy0681]

5 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Blank out your address and post the invoice. 

Probably a good idea. If what you said is true, that they were working on a lot of other aircraft at the same time, some of those charges may have found their way onto your bill. And some experts here may be able to identify items that simply don't belong.

[Bob_Belville]

The OP references a fuel leak. That alone might involve several thousand dollars and if not anticipated and planned for might involve significant delay. Without knowing what was done beyond the inspection and without knowing what the agreement between the owner and the shop was regarding remedying any discrepancies found it is hard to say whether the cost is appropriate. My IA does the inspection for a flat rate. changing oil, filter, and any maintenance is extra but he would inform and consult before doing extras unless he has been given authorization in advance. Many owners postpone installs and elective maintenance that are not airworthy issues until the plane is down for the annual. That stuff is not the annual, it just happens to be concurrent.

 

[Shadrach]

As an addendum to my earlier post - Regardless of whether you were ripped off or not, they obviously failed miserably when it comes to customer relations/communication...annual repairs can be expensive, but no one should ever get a $9K surprise, that clearly means the shop performed work without permission or setting expectations...and that is lousy customer service at best.

[rblauson]

Yes I realize I only provided a very brief summary. So here's more detail. When I approached them to do the annual I was told to expect roughly 2 to 3 weeks to do it. I supplied them with a short list of squawks that I wanted to be fixed/ addressed in addition to whatever they found. The first surprise was a supposed 25 + hour labor charge just to look over the airplane prior to beginning the annual which I was never told about. Then the annual itself supposedly racked up over 7k in labor charges although no major repairs of any kind were conducted. I will supply more details on the exact hours when the receipt for the annual is given to me. I was told by the owner of the shop that a lot of the work / labor on my annual was due to having to " undo" improperly previously conducted work. Again, I have yet to see thier specifics yet. during their inspection they found a fuel leak on one side. At first, they were saying they would sign off the airplane and did not consider the leak unsafe. After my airplane already having been in the shop for a couple of months for a 9 k annual, my thinking was - they've taken their sweet time with a 9k annual where no major repairs were done so considering they've taken away the remainder of my summer flying months by working on other planes and not prioritizing mine, I might as well have the fuel leak repaired IF they can do it and IF they can do it at a reasonable cost. So both the mechanic assigned to my Mooney and the shop owner agree to do the work on the leaking side for an amount between $1200.00 and $2500.00 max. The mechanic specifically states I should expect 3 to 4 years of trouble free non leaking from that side. He did state I shouldn't expect the 7 to 10 years that a complete reseal would take. Verbally agreed too ( yes a def mistake on my part not to get that repair estimate up front in writing ). They start that work and figure out once they stated it that figuring out where the leak/s were coming from was more difficult then they expected and they spent a lot of time trying to figure it out. Additionally they damaged a lot of my paint ( paint job not even 4 years old) with the tape they used around my upper side fuel access panels ( peeled away a lot of my paint- like a 3" circumference around each upper access panel) The truth is they weren't experience enough in Mooney tank repair to figure it out in a reasonable amount of time. Once they did, they didn't plug/ seal the leaks properly. They had to keep going back in to find the source of the leak. All the while the owner was pulling the mechanic that was doing this work to work on other airplanes- leaving mine to collect more dust as their level of frustration increased trying to plug the leak and keep it from re- leaking. Eventually after approx. 4 total months of my airplane in their shop they claim to have finally repaired the fuel leak. The few discussions I've had with the owner about the cost of the fuel repair side have now gone from the original $1200.00 to $ 2500.00 max ( on top of the 9k annual ) to something like 90 hours of additional labor at $90.00 an hour and there's even more to the fuel leak portion of this story but I don't want to put any of you to sleep. Today I'm supposed to test fly it. I have no idea if the annual stuff they did will be ok after all this time, or if they fixed any of the squawks I brought into the annual because they wasted so much time on my annual and fuel leak. They haven't repaired the damaged paint ( the owner verbally agreed to do that ) but I think he will reneg on that. He left other work undone that was supposed to be done. I now believe he's been down this road before with other airplane owners and wants to " cut his losses " assuming I won't agree to pay him for the fuel tank work debacle etc. I have paid $3000.00 on my Amex card only. So out of the ridiculous 9k they want for the annual and the " who knows what he will now charge "  for the fuel leak. I'm only in it for 3k. But I don't have my logs back. Should I request those logs be back in my possession before I even text fly it? I thought of offering him a couple of compromises but before I offer those I want advice from flyers like you with likely much more experience dealing with this stuff.sorry for the long details. There's plenty more unfortunately.

Fire away gentlemen 

and can anyone call me ? 203-243-0099 I could def use a little coaching 

Thanks 

mark 

Edited December 18, 2015 by rblauson
Adding my phone number

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Bob_Belville said:

The OP references a fuel leak. That alone might involve several thousand dollars and if not anticipated and planned for might involve significant delay. Without knowing what was done beyond the inspection and without knowing what the agreement between the owner and the shop was regarding remedying any discrepancies found it is hard to say whether the cost is appropriate. My IA does the inspection for a flat rate. changing oil, filter, and any maintenance is extra but he would inform and consult before doing extras unless he has been given authorization in advance. Many owners postpone installs and elective maintenance that are not airworthy issues until the plane is down for the annual. That stuff is not the annual, it just happens to be concurrent.

 

I think that shops would save themselves a lot of trouble and reputation difficulties if the notion of the "blank check" service request went the way of the Dodo. Any and every shop should discuss options and costs with the owner and receive authorization to perform the work. We had an Avionics shop on the field that would always call and tell me the work had been completed when I was expecting a diagnostics report. The manager would never have the invoice when he called and he was never there when I picked up the radio. They're out of business now; I wonder why? 

[N601RX]

I would not fly it without the logs back with the AD's and annual signed off .  Suppose the landing gear collapses on touchdown or fuel line becomes stopped up with loose sealant. Do you think they would then give you a logbook entry stating that they had just serviced and adjusted the landing gear or resealed the tanks?  There is also an AD on the fuel tank sealant to be sure it doesn't plug up the drain passages under each rib.

[ArtVandelay]

I never give them my logs, they get electronic copies only, and I have a second set of keys...just in case I have to repo my own plane back

[rblauson]

Can you give me a call? I'm worried about my next step here 

203-243-0099 Mark

[Shadrach]

12 minutes ago, rblauson said:

Can you give me a call? I'm worried about my next step here 

203-243-0099 Mark

Can who give you a call?

[Shadrach]

don't fly it. Ask for a complete breakdown of the work performed.  It reads like you paid someone to learn how to work on a Mooney wet wing. $2500 is well over half way to a decent strip and reseal. Do you have pics of your wings before the damage?

[PMcClure]

23 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

I never give them my logs, they get electronic copies only, and I have a second set of keys...just in case I have to repo my own plane back

Without updated logs, your plane is out of annual and not legal to fly. Slow down, get some more advice before proceeding. 

 

[carusoam]

Communication is key here, Mark.

Focus on being brief and clear.

A long annual is a week.  A really long annual kills off two flying weekends.

An expensive annual is 2AMUS a really expensive annual is more like 4AMUs (based on my income experience)

Getting a tank stripped and resealed is not a usual annual experience.  They would have to communicate the need for this.  Tell you what is involved before you agreed to get it done.

Work on making your points clear here.  This will help you with making your points clear with the shop.

See what I mean?

Best regards,

-a-

[Shadrach]

Just now, PMcClure said:

Without updated logs, your plane is out of annual and not legal to fly. Slow down, get some more advice before proceeding. 

 

Not everyone waits until the plane is out of annual to have the annual inspection completed.  I often do, because you get an extra month if you time it right. However, if I were using a shop for the first time, I'd likely not give them an out of annual bird. Been there done that... 

[N201MKTurbo]

Fixing leaks in Mooney tanks has a steep learning curve. After you figure it out, you can fix any leak with one tank opening. You shouldn't have to pay them to learn how to do it. Especially when you could have taken it to a shop like Maxwell's or Beck's who could have done it right the first time with about 10 hours of labor.

[wishboneash]

Perhaps your regular IA could help look over the plane, check it out and if it looks OK demand to get the logs back with the updated entries to prove airworthiness. Bite the bullet and pay a negotiated settlement (the fuel leak was a learning experience for them and should not go over the max limit). Then get the hell out of there and post the name of the shop here so no Mooney ever ends up going back there.

[PMcClure]

2 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Not everyone waits until the plane is out of annual to have the annual inspection completed.  I often do, because you get an extra month if you time it right. However, if I were using a shop for the first time, I'd likely not give them an out of annual bird. Been there done that... 

Technically you are correct - but it was there 4 months! Correct to say - if your log books do not reflect a current annual inspection then your plane is not legal to fly. 

 

3 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

 

[ArtVandelay]

Just now, PMcClure said: Without updated logs, your plane is out of annual and not legal to fly. Slow down, get some more advice before proceeding. 

 

Not everyone waits until the plane is out of annual to have the annual inspection completed.  I often do, because you get an extra month if you time it right. However, if I were using a shop for the first time, I'd likely not give them an out of annual bird. Been there done that... 

I don't think it matters, I think once you tell them to inspect it, if they find its unairworthy, it's grounded, that's why that pre buys must be not considered inspections, but considered evaluations.

[OR75]

1 hour ago, teejayevans said:

I don't think it matters, I think once you tell them to inspect it, if they find its unairworthy, it's grounded, that's why that pre buys must be not considered inspections, but considered evaluations.

Agree but one cannot just say it is un-airworthy ... got to explain why