Stupid Pilot Tricks

[Chocks]

8 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I learned to fly from a very high time CFI, Gold Seal, more than 20K hours of instruction time logged. He gave me the complex endorsement in his Comanche 250. He told me then that most all CFI's teach "no usable runway", but then made the case for altitude as the best safety factor. When he checked me out in the Mooney a couple of years ago his advice was to raise the gear ASAP with positive climb. Get the altitude, never mind the runway.

 

3 hours ago, 201er said:

Cool vid! But did you guys seriously mount a camera on the horizontal stabilizer???

Sure! Why not?

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

In my opinion, that accident does not make a case for leaving the airplane dirty, if anything makes a case for the opposite. Landing is always an option even if the gear are up. Leaving the gear down is an attempt to save the airplane in the event the plane must be put back on the runway. Pitching for 80mph in a mooney puts the airplane in a high AOA, high drag situation. Not a good place for a laminar flow wing.

I'm with Shadrach and gsxrpilot ont this one here, but for a reason many may not be accounting for. I have learned the hard way that you can't just rest on the things you read, see or hear all the time as a generalization and not understand why first. Just agreeing with a technique, or procedure because "that's how everyone else does it" is a detriment to evolution. Figure out why that technique or procedure functions or doesn't function in your scenario and go from there.
In that C Model, the gear is manually actuated and is able to be retracted and deployed in under 1 second. That makes it a flow item, period. No matter what the incidence, the PIC is able to deploy the gear without interruption or delay at his/her discretion. I completely understand and agree with most slow, standard RG deployment aircraft needing to leave the gear down until either blue line or no more usable runway. It's for very good reasons, but it's just not appropriate technique in all aircraft.

[Mooneymite]

"Positive rate...gear up."

Single, two engine, three engine, four engine....doesn't matter.

Been that way for years.

If the engine quits, the gear can be extended if/when needed.

I guess in the case cited in the original post, the fact that the positive  rate was not sustained, the gear was inappropriately retracted.

[Marauder]

"Positive rate...gear up."

Single, two engine, three engine, four engine....doesn't matter.

Been that way for years.

If the engine quits, the gear can be extended if/when needed.

I guess in the case cited in the original post, the fact that the positive  rate was not sustained, the gear was inappropriately retracted.

I have been using the "positive rate" timing since I was first checked out in a complex.

This leads to the next topic (you didn't think this thread would stay on topic did you?); when do you retract flaps and turn off the boost pump? For me, after I check the gear is stowed, I retract flaps next and at 500 AGL, I turn off the boost pump and cross check fuel pressure on the JPI and EI instruments.

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[Mooneymite]

Flap retraction depends....if climbing straight out, retract as soon as airspeed/acceleration permits.  If departure requires a significant turn, keep the flaps out until the turn is complete.  Better stall margin and a shorter turn radius.

Boost pump off whenever you'd feel comfortable with the engine quitting and having time to turn it back on....300-500' is probably reasonable unless climbing out over rising/inhospitable terrain....or if you're  like me, whenever I  finally remember to turn it off.  

 

[kpaul]

3 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I have been using the "positive rate" timing since I was first checked out in a complex

With a little over 5000 hours in retracts, I always use "positive rate gear up,"  More accurately I always use "Two positive rates, gear up."  Looking for both the altimeter climbing and positive VVI.  

[Hank]

8 hours ago, Mooney20 said:

If you read the complete report, then you failed to comprehend it.  Given that the airplane was actually almost 200 pounds over gross, the best option was to cut the operating engine and land straight ahead.  If that had been done, the aircraft would have stopped more than a thousand feet of runway remaining.  That was the gist of the many articles written about the accident at the time.  

The NTSB blamed the company for giving incorrect W&B info to the pilot, which is why he was slightly overweight and out of CG. They blamed the pilot for not taking the correct engine out procedure for his plane:  raise gear, raise flaps, feather dead engine in that order. Landing ahead was another option. Had he cleaned up the plane first, he may have been able to climb. I'm not pedantic enough to cut and paste from the report, though.

Having been distracted on a takeoff once with almost immediate turn and climb into IMC, I have experienced my Mooney's climb rate with the gear down, and it's disturbingly low. I will stay in the "positive rate, gear up; clear obstacles, flaps up" club, although i only use flaps when heavy or at short fields (<3000' long).

[Hank]

dp

[Browncbr1]

22 hours ago, Hank said:

This has long been a mantra for many instructors, but I don't see the point in flying a half mile, barely climbing, "for safety in case of an engine failure." Why is it safer for your engine to die close to the ground? My departures are always, rotate, verify positive rate, gear up and pitch for Vx. The sooner I'm at 1000' agl, the safer I am, because altitude gives options. If something happens 40 seconds after I firewall the throttle for departure, I'd much rather be 800' agl past the end of the runway than 250-300' agl.

It's not like it takes a long time to raise the gear, nor does Mooney gear create large amounts of extra drag while cycling (Bonanzas do the latter, while Cessna retracts do both). This makes me think the whole "leave the gear down on takeoff as long as possible" mantra  is a one-size-fits-most approach. I haven't messed with this here ithingy enough to crop and highlight, but here's the page from my Owners Manual discussing the takeoff and raising gear. Note the verbiage; there's no mention of waiting for usable runway to disappear.

On the other hand, this guy was obviously premature with his retraction. Wonder if he was hot dogging to impress a passenger? I'm generally at least 15-20' agl when I reach for the switch, and if it's unsettled outside I wait to verify I'm climbing well and not bouncing or trying to settle first.

I sort of do the same think.  Pull the gear up maybe at about 100ft  or so.  Depending on DA I will retract flaps earlier or later.  

How long to you guys leave in your flaps?  I usually raise flaps around 95-100mph, but in high DA, I will try to climb a little steeper and leave the flaps in until getting close to TPA.  I might be wrong, but it seems the flaps help Vx a little bit at high DA?

[Shadrach]

Flaps up is purely subjective. On a cool high pressure day I might retract at 80mph. If it departing from an airport where the OAT 95df and the DA is 5000', I'll retract crossing through 500FPM.

[bonal]

Don't know what that guy was up to definitely too close to ground for my taste. I trim for takeoff and retract gear on positive climb flaps as I approach max flap speed boost off around 1000agl. If I am configured for takeoff I have to push really hard on yoke to stay in ground effect. That close to ground and one little hiccup in the air and he's toast.

[piperpainter]

Positive rate gear up! And I was at least 2ft off the surface before raising the gear, but notice I don't drop! I know how to fly my airplane and avoid the pitch down when you retract the gear. It's just natural to retract as soon as I am airborne. As others have said it's not easy to retract when you get going fast and "remaining runway" is not an issue when you can put it back down in less than a second. I want to get the most speed/accel and climb I can. Leaving the gear down doesn't help this at all.

[DXB]

I do think lowering the J-bar gear and making sure it locks takes more attention than flipping a switch, and I imagine that in an engine out situation the bandwidth is pretty full.  So  I wish I could practice is getting the J-bar down quickly once I have the emergency landing site made - be it the takeoff runway or off the field (assuming surface is conducive to landing on the gear).   I don't think I've ever lowered the gear below 1500 ft AGL, and it takes my full attention, albeit for only a couple of seconds.  Every once in a while I have to swing it twice to get it to lock.  I'm not sure how this would go under high pressure and close to the ground.  

[Hank]

Good Lord, Dev! Never lowered the gear below 1500 agl? Pattern altitude is only 1000', do you normally enter the pattern down and locked? Granted, I was held high a little long this afternoon and blew into the pattern right at 1000', trying desperately to slow down. Think I finally hit the 125 white arc about midfield, put in Takeoff flaps and dropped gear. I know that 3nm out on the 45 I was still indicating 150 mph (white line starts at 125) and ~300' high.

[DXB]

31 minutes ago, Hank said:

Good Lord, Dev! Never lowered the gear below 1500 agl? Pattern altitude is only 1000', do you normally enter the pattern down and locked? Granted, I was held high a little long this afternoon and blew into the pattern right at 1000', trying desperately to slow down. Think I finally hit the 125 white arc about midfield, put in Takeoff flaps and dropped gear. I know that 3nm out on the 45 I was still indicating 150 mph (white line starts at 125) and ~300' high.

Hank - I'm in the habit of getting the gear down and GUMPS finished just before descending the last few hundred feet into the pattern- it feels more controlled to me and lets me focus on any traffic in the pattern and trimming for approach speed as I level off in the pattern, rather than fighting to bleeding off enough speed to drop gear.  If I manage my descent poorly and end up too high, I'll drop the gear even earlier to use as a speed brake for the last part of the descent.  If I'm too low, I'll wait a tad longer than usual.  This is just what my transition instructor who owned an old C model taught me - I'd definitely be game to try a different way. I do think your technique is closer to the POH in this regard. BTW I haven't used flaps until abeam on downwind and starting my descent from TPA.  I know lots of people like you use flaps before gear - I guess allowing this was Mooney's intent in '68, when they raised the C model's Vfe to 125 from 100. A consequence however was that my '68C wound up with a doubler on the rear spar early in its life, presumably from cracks caused by people deploying flaps at too high a speed. 

Also, regarding the original gear retraction discussion here,I think the distance needed for me to feel like I'm reliably climbing and in good control on a typical 3000ish ft. non-towered strip also puts me near a position where landing on remaining runway is unrealistic.  So using either criteria may be similar functionally much of the time.  For long runways, I still use the early retraction approach rather than climbing at Vx for longer mainly because keeping CHTs down is a fight in my C model, and I'm anxious to speed up and drop the nose for cooling. 

[Shadrach]

15 hours ago, DXB said:

I do think lowering the J-bar gear and making sure it locks takes more attention than flipping a switch, and I imagine that in an engine out situation the bandwidth is pretty full.  So  I wish I could practice is getting the J-bar down quickly once I have the emergency landing site made - be it the takeoff runway or off the field (assuming surface is conducive to landing on the gear).   I don't think I've ever lowered the gear below 1500 ft AGL, and it takes my full attention, albeit for only a couple of seconds.  Every once in a while I have to swing it twice to get it to lock.  I'm not sure how this would go under high pressure and close to the ground.  

Is that something you were taught or something that you developed on your own? You're in the Philly area, correct? Do you ever land at KPHL? I would think it would be a challenge to blend with traffic while staying below gear speed at that altitude. Last time I landed there, I was being vectored to 35 when they ask me to maintain 160kts until crossing the bank of the Deleware river. thats pretty much a one mile final. I have also been given the "Stuka arrival" to runway 26, held at 4000' while vectoring to a 5 mile final cleared to land.

My SOP in the pattern has always been to be at gear speed and lowering the gear abeam the numbers on downwind. If I'm on a straight inI drop the gear at 3 miles.

[Shadrach]

19 minutes ago, DXB said:

Hank - I'm in the habit of getting the gear down and GUMPS finished just before descending the last few hundred feet into the pattern- it feels more controlled to me and lets me focus on any traffic in the pattern and trimming for approach speed as I level off in the pattern, rather than fighting to bleeding off enough speed to drop gear.  If I manage my descent poorly and end up too high, I'll drop the gear even earlier to use as a speed brake for the last part of the descent.  If I'm too low, I'll wait a tad longer than usual.  This is just what my transition instructor who owned an old C model taught me - I'd definitely be game to try a different way. I do think your technique is closer to the POH in this regard. BTW I haven't used flaps until abeam on downwind and starting my descent from TPA.  I know lots of people like you use flaps before gear - I guess allowing this was Mooney's intent in '68, when they raised the C model's Vfe to 125 from 100. A consequence however was that my '68C wound up with a doubler on the rear spar early in its life, presumably from cracks caused by people deploying flaps at too high a speed. 

Also, regarding the original gear retraction discussion here,I think the distance needed for me to feel like I'm reliably climbing and in good control on a typical 3000ish ft. non-towered strip also puts me near a position where landing on remaining runway is unrealistic.  So using either criteria may be similar functionally much of the time.  For long runways, I still use the early retraction approach rather than climbing at Vx for longer mainly because keeping CHTs down is a fight in my C model, and I'm anxious to speed up and drop the nose for cooling. 

I bet there's not a bird in the fleet that has not had the flaps left down after climb out and beyond Vfe.

[DXB]

17 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Is that something you were taught or something that you developed on your own? Your in the Philly area, correct? Do you ever land at KPHL? I would think it would be a challenge to blend with traffic while staying below gear speed at that altitude. Last time I landed there, I was being vectored to 35 when they ask me to maintain 160kts until crossing the bank of the Deleware river. thats pretty much a one mile final. I have also been given the Stuka arrival to runway 26, held at 4000' while vectoring to a 5 mile final cleared to land.

My SOP in the pattern has always been to be at gear speed and lowering the gear abeam the numbers on downwind. If I'm on a straight I drop the gear at 3 miles.

My fairly green skills are probably not up to snuff yet for landing at PHL, though it would be fun to try sometime VFR after some preparation and an instructor on board. 160kt takes me to within 5mph of my Vne of 189mph- not quite sure how I'd handle that. I was taught to get my GUMPS done before descending into the downwind of the traffic pattern during transition training, then MP18" and trim for 90mph when established downwind at TPA. I generally get the gear down at about 5 miles out, between 2000 and 1500ft, when cleared for straight in at my towered field. One of these days I'll try it the way you guys do it...

[Shadrach]

4 minutes ago, DXB said:

My fairly green skills are probably not up to snuff yet for landing at PHL, though it would be fun to try sometime VFR after some preparation and an instructor on board. 160kt takes me to within 5mph of my Vne of 189mph- not quite sure how I'd handle that. I was taught to get my GUMPS done before descending into the downwind of the traffic pattern during transition training, then MP18" and trim for 90mph when established downwind at TPA. I generally get the gear down at about 5 miles out, between 2000 and 1500ft, when cleared for straight in at my towered field. One of these days I'll try it the way you guys do it...

I was just curious, I am betting that you are very smooth and deliberate in your approach to staying ahead of the airplane which is good for passengers. Also, the only reason I was given 160kts was because that what I was indicating when he asked me to say airspeed. I told him 160kts indicated and he asked me if I could hold that to the river. 

[Danb]

Ross being from the philly area your statement shows the need to practice flying in different situations although it seems as I fly north the controllers get more demanding and rude, I wonder how many flew in a small airplane. I was going in Hartford and was five miles out at 6000 feet and asked for lower for the second time, then in about a minute was cleared to land I was above 5000 ft. I told the controller I could not make it down and asked for a 360. His response was turn left to say 180 degrees and hold at xyz intersection, after 12-15 minutes which seemed like an eternity he came back and if I could manage to fly my plane now and turned me back and cleared me to land. Upon landing I called the tower and asked for the manager  he was not available to answer my call. I was not going to shock cool my bird for them. I later practice at Millville to try and make the same approach to landing and all the practice in the world would not allow me to perform the landing.

[StinkBug]

On 11/28/2015, 3:14:48, Shadrach said:

Is that something you were taught or something that you developed on your own? You're in the Philly area, correct? Do you ever land at KPHL? I would think it would be a challenge to blend with traffic while staying below gear speed at that altitude. Last time I landed there, I was being vectored to 35 when they ask me to maintain 160kts until crossing the bank of the Deleware river. thats pretty much a one mile final. I have also been given the "Stuka arrival" to runway 26, held at 4000' while vectoring to a 5 mile final cleared to land.

My SOP in the pattern has always been to be at gear speed and lowering the gear abeam the numbers on downwind. If I'm on a straight inI drop the gear at 3 miles.

Seems like I have ATC hold me high then drop me in fast way more than I'd like. Coming into VGT 2 days ago They had me 3k above the pattern at like 5 miles out, then cleared me to land on a base entry. Needless to say I was slipping at idle trying to get down and slow. Flaps and gear didn't come out til short final. I prefer to do it much earlier, but you gotta be prepared to deal with the situation. We get enough jet traffic at my field that I often get asked to carry my speed to a 2 mile final.

[Shadrach]

24 minutes ago, StinkBug said:

Seems like I have ATC hold me high then drop me in fast way more than I'd like. Coming into VGT 2 days ago They had me 3k above the pattern at like 5 miles out, then cleared me to land on a base entry. Needless to say I was slipping at idle trying to get down and slow. Flaps and gear didn't come out til short final. I prefer to do it much earlier, but you gotta be prepared to deal with the situation. We get enough jet traffic at my field that I often get asked to carry my speed to a 2 mile final.

It's a double edged sword. The most altitude lost over a distance is achieved by closing the throttle and using pitch to hold about 1.1Vso...not comfortable for passengers and too slow to mix with other traffic, I have had to dive and drive setting up to be low and fast on final transitioning to a mild climbing slip to intercept the glide slope. This is not tremendously comfortable for pax either.

[StinkBug]

Yep, I was flying a new passenger so I was trying to both keep it comfortable, and also not set off the gear warning. Not the easiest thing to do when they won't let you plan it out early.

[FloridaMan]

When I had my engine failure at 200ft and 120mph, I was able to dump the manual gear immediately to help bleed off airspeed. 

[steingar]

I suck the gear up fast as I can.  I'm a tiny little man and don't have the herculean arm strength to get the bar down at 120 mph.  I trim the takeoff to about 80 mph and get the fear and flaps, then accelerate (using trim) to climbing speed.  I haven't looked at my CHT on takeoff yet (I get a bit busy) but I bet it wouldn't look good with sustained climb at 80.  Sorry, but it the engine blows having the gear and flaps up just gives me that many more options.  I'd rather belly up in a nice field than have the gear down in hostile terrain.

 

I've been putting gear and flaps down and GUMPS prior to down wind.  I like the lower speeds and stabilized approach.

[Yetti]

flaps what are those?