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[DaV8or]

Mooney can never beat Cirrus, or even go head to head with them unless they basically copy them. It's for the same reason that Mooney could never beat or go head to head with Cessna back in the day.

The Mooney M20 is a purpose built airplane with efficiency being it's primary objective. To achieve that goal, Al Mooney and all those since have had to make compromises elsewhere. Most notably in ease of egress, cabin space comfort and simplicity. Now add to that list, the lack of a parachute.

The Cirrus on the other hand was designed to be more of a jack of all trades. The family sedan rather than a sports coupe. What do buyers really want?? Well the Cessna 172 Skyhawk and the Cessna 182 Skylane are the number one and number two airplane in the world for all time in terms of production numbers and sales. I think that is a pretty good indicator as to what the market wants.

The M20 in any form will always be a niche airplane. This new version, (BTW, does it have a new letter, like M20U or something??) will likely steal maybe a half a dozen buyers from Cirrus, but that's about it IMO. It's just not the plane the average new plane buyer is looking for now. 

[aviatoreb]

28 minutes ago, DaV8or said:

Mooney can never beat Cirrus, or even go head to head with them unless they basically copy them. It's for the same reason that Mooney could never beat or go head to head with Cessna back in the day.

The Mooney M20 is a purpose built airplane with efficiency being it's primary objective. To achieve that goal, Al Mooney and all those since have had to make compromises elsewhere. Most notably in ease of egress, cabin space comfort and simplicity. Now add to that list, the lack of a parachute.

The Cirrus on the other hand was designed to be more of a jack of all trades. The family sedan rather than a sports coupe. What do buyers really want?? Well the Cessna 172 Skyhawk and the Cessna 182 Skylane are the number one and number two airplane in the world for all time in terms of production numbers and sales. I think that is a pretty good indicator as to what the market wants.

The M20 in any form will always be a niche airplane. This new version, (BTW, does it have a new letter, like M20U or something??) will likely steal maybe a half a dozen buyers from Cirrus, but that's about it IMO. It's just not the plane the average new plane buyer is looking for now. 

Mooney does not need to beat Cirrus, but to gain customers they need to steal a few customers from Cirrus.  It is mostly a zero sum game amongst those pilots who will buy new airplanes, and those airplane producers selling.  Yes, maybe Mooney will win a few more customers from Cirrus with this design, but they would have won a bunch more if they could get a parachute in that M20.  Yes, not most of the Cirrus, but enough to make a very noticable to Mooney's bottom line.

[Shadrach]

3 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Mooney does not need to beat Cirrus, but to gain customers they need to steal a few customers from Cirrus.  It is mostly a zero sum game amongst those pilots who will buy new airplanes, and those airplane producers selling.  Yes, maybe Mooney will win a few more customers from Cirrus with this design, but they would have won a bunch more if they could get a parachute in that M20.  Yes, not most of the Cirrus, but enough to make a very noticable to Mooney's bottom line.

I agree, but a 200lb Payload increase would be put it over the top. It's pretty clear which is better looking.

[aviatoreb]

41 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I agree, but a 200lb Payload increase would be put it over the top. It's pretty clear which is better looking.

What an UGLY piper commanche paint job on the M20V.  Sure would be better looking with almost any other paint job.

Actually, yes pay load would put it over the top, but it has the speed by a lot, sports car handling, etc, so with a parachute alone,  think they would win a lot of cirrus buyers.

Cover the rest of the skins as carbon, esp the wings, and perhaps ti tubes and there's yuour weight savings.

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

What an UGLY piper commanche paint job on the M20V.  Sure would be better looking with almost any other paint job.

Actually, yes pay load would put it over the top, but it has the speed by a lot, sports car handling, etc, so with a parachute alone,  think they would win a lot of cirrus buyers.

Cover the rest of the skins as carbon, esp the wings, and perhaps ti tubes and there's yuour weight savings.

I disagree on the paint. I quite like the retro paint jobs the factory is applying these days.

[Marauder]

On November 3, 2015 at 1:57 PM, cliffy said: I can't see where the business plan by Mr Chen was so shallow that they have to resort to used sales to stay afloat. That just doesn't seem reasonable when they are looking at supplying China with airplanes. We have to think outside the aluminum and steel tube box. Given that they went composite with the new airplane I still think the picture of the computer drawn "smooth" exterior Mooney they showed at the Paso Robles flyin speaks more to the future of Mooney than anything else. Like I said there, once you have the exterior data points the fill in structure is easy. That, coupled with the smile I got (but no comment) when I said it looked like someone is going after a glass airplane company was telling in my book.

Also, being as a composite airplane has a parts count way below and standard construction model and the lessening of the human error factor coupled to the lower parts count and better quality control of fewer parts makes me think a copostieMooney 4 pl is in the works.

They already have the engineering team and computer system and they have the exterior data points. They could go to 3D computer parts for a mock up real easy.

Time will tell.

Cliffy guessed composite! Good job!

Cliffy is only partially correct. The tail is still metal. I'll still send in some money for a beer for him.

Doesn't he work in Kerrville?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[cliffy]

Nope! I don't work in KERV or have any connection with Mooney  :-)   I live 2 states away.

[carusoam]

Cliffy,

you should have guessed turbine and pressurized cabin!

Best regards,

-a-

[Mcstealth]

For what it's worth, my sources say there are only three or four unfinished single door models. Everything will be double door before the end of the month.

[cliffy]

The present fuselage/wing connection design can not be economically pressurised IMHO. 

On the other hand, a turbo-prop could be dropped into the airframe but would it sell if it wasn't pressurised? 

It would perform however.

Some postulations with no inside information whatsoever-

Could a BRS system be fitted with the current tubing structure used as anchor points and the new composite shell 

used as a breakaway channel for the support cables for a level attitude on decent using a breakaway hatch on the aluminum rear tailcone?

If the aluminum rear tailcone could not be used, would it be economically feasible to to make a composite tailcone and then

install a BRS system? 

All airplanes produced from now on will be 2 door models. It makes no sense from a manufacturing standpoint to have 2 different fuselages. 

on the production line. Likewise, the cost delta between 1 or 2 doors would not be enough to move the market toward 1 door models. 

Just provoking some discussion.

[DonMuncy]

1 hour ago, Mcstealth said:

For what it's worth, my sources say there are only three or four unfinished single door models. Everything will be double door before the end of the month.

You're just trying to get in trouble again

[Mcstealth]

And to end this thread, it has now occurred to me what I saw that "looked different" to me that day I thought I "saw something". It was the window sight line that caught my eye originally. That back window made me look, and that led me to the seam line on the left side. I didn't know what I saw until I started asking questions.

Don, am I out of the dog house now?  

MNIN, can I come inside now?  

 

[Txbyker]

On February 13, 2016 at 1:32 PM, aviatoreb said:

Mooney does not need to beat Cirrus, but to gain customers they need to steal a few customers from Cirrus.  It is mostly a zero sum game amongst those pilots who will buy new airplanes, and those airplane producers selling.  Yes, maybe Mooney will win a few more customers from Cirrus with this design, but they would have won a bunch more if they could get a parachute in that M20.  Yes, not most of the Cirrus, but enough to make a very noticable to Mooney's bottom line.

I like that Mooney retained the full cage.  That's hard to explain to a perspective customer.  I guess you can ask if you would rather descend via parachute uncontrolled but only if above 1000 ft or land right side up in a Mooney.  The cage is somewhat unique.

Russ