King 256 Failure

[Marauder]

Don -- I looked closely at both the G500 and the Aspens. At the time the PFD did not back up to the MFD, the GAD-43e was not available to work with legacy hardware and the battery backup was also no-existent. I understand the battery backup is available now and the installed price is $5k. Can you confirm that the PFD now can be moved over to the MFD in case of PFD failure and if you looked into the battery backup? In a Bravo, I believe you have dual alternators and electrical systems, so the battery is not as critical. For the rest of us it is.

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[donkaye]

Don -- I looked closely at both the G500 and the Aspens. At the time the PFD did not back up to the MFD, the GAD-43e was not available to work with legacy hardware and the battery backup was also no-existent. I understand the battery backup is available now and the installed price is $5k. Can you confirm that the PFD now can be moved over to the MFD in case of PFD failure and if you looked into the battery backup? In a Bravo, I believe you have dual alternators and electrical systems, so the battery is not as critical. For the rest of us it is.

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The G500 is not a G1000.  There is no reversion from PFD to MFD, although that would certainly be nice.  I am also unaware of any battery backup available for the G500.  Certainly nothing has been discussed on BeechTalk or presented at Oshkosh this year.  My discussion above referred to the Genesis L-3 ESI 500 currently in certification and I am told will be available by November of this year.  Like my ESI 2000 backup to the G500, it has a multi hour battery backup and additionally input from a GPS for navigation and SVT.

 

I'm not sure what you are referring to with regards the GAD 43e and legacy hardware.  Its job is to provide the interface to the AP, DME, ADF, and provide Altitude and Vertical preselect to a number of autopilots.

[aviatoreb]

Actually - there is more to my story I told from last Fall as to what went into my decision just to overhaul.  More factors.

 

-I was getting indications it was on last legs but it had not actually failed.  But I figured I should do something right away.

-It takes a little while and leg work to line up the shop, and time on the calendar to do a more major overhaul.

-Don said it - I do sentimentally like the mechanical instruments, like the auto-winding swiss watch I wear with a clear back - its just cool.

-I will upgrade to some kind of electronic panel eventually but I was not ready to jump yet - actually I am holding out the ghost that a part 23 rewrite will allow me to eventually get something superb like the garmin g3x at a price like 7500 incl autopilot.  So I don't want to be cornered into a aspen or g500 at much greater cost just to have the opportunity to get what I really want later become an expensive side move.

[LANCECASPER]

actually I am holding out the ghost that a part 23 rewrite will allow me to eventually get something superb like the garmin g3x at a price like 7500 incl autopilot.  

Do you also believe that someday there's gonna be a little Richard Simmons Jr. running around? It's not gonna happen.   

[Marauder]

The G500 is not a G1000. There is no reversion from PFD to MFD, although that would certainly be nice. I am also unaware of any battery backup available for the G500. Certainly nothing has been discussed on BeechTalk or presented at Oshkosh this year. My discussion above referred to the Genesis L-3 ESI 500 currently in certification and I am told will be available by November of this year. Like my ESI 2000 backup to the G500, it has a multi hour battery backup and additionally input from a GPS for navigation and SVT.

I'm not sure what you are referring to with regards the GAD 43e and legacy hardware. Its job is to provide the interface to the AP, DME, ADF, and provide Altitude and Vertical preselect to a number of autopilots.

The battery backup for the G500 is supposed to be available. The owner next to me who just upgraded to a G500 was offered the solution. He declined based on the $5k price tag. Not sure it was a Garmin offering.

The original G600 and subsequently the G500 were initially only offered with the GAD-43. This unit was primarily an autopilot interface for BK, Cessna and couple other APs. It replaced the KI-256. The GAD-43 did not talk to analog radios.

In response to Aspen's interface capability to analog based legacy boxes (KX-155, etc.) they introduced the GAD-43e. This opened up analog connectivity like marker beacons, DME, VOR/ILS/GS, etc. It also gave altitude pre-select to some APs like the STEC series, bootstrapping and provided ARINC 407, 429 and RS-232 like you mentioned.

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[PTK]

The op has a decision to make about his failing vacuum AI. Only option has been to OH it.

He cannot buy a brand new one for reasonable money. Even if he could it'd still be old technology.

With the KI 300 he can buy a brand new one for similar money as overhauling old one!

Not only a brand new but one with technology that will outlast the old many times over.

That's what King is offering us with the KI 300 for a very reasonable 6K. It's really that simple.

Now some are reaching for straws trying to make the argument that somehow miraculously they gain extra capability with an aspen, etc.etc.

There is no extra capability available to be gained for 6k!

I wonder which part of "it just doesn't exist" gives them the most trouble!

[donkaye]

The op has a decision to make about his failing vacuum AI. Only option has been to OH it.

He cannot buy a brand new one for reasonable money. Even if he could it'd still be old technology.

With the KI 300 he can buy a brand new one for similar money as overhauling old one!

Not only a brand new but one with technology that will outlast the old many times over.

That's what King is offering us with the KI 300 for a very reasonable 6K. It's really that simple.

Now some are reaching for straws trying to make the argument that somehow miraculously they gain extra capability with an aspen, etc.etc.

There is no extra capability available to be gained for 6k!

I wonder which part of "it just doesn't exist" gives them the most trouble!

 

Well then, I just hope the KI 300 gets its certification soon, because from my experience the KI 256 OH'd, due to its mechanical behavior and gyro peculiarities, is just not up to the task when it comes to comfortable instrument flying in this days and age--especially when its failure modes can be either mechanical, vacuum, or both.  Recognizing the financial implication of upgrading even to the Aspen, is your life and those of our family really not worth the difference of just a couple of thousand dollars  even if you are a CB?

[PTK]

That wasn't the question.

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[Alan Fox]

King unfortunately has a bad track record with GA certification.....They STILL have no STC for a KT74 install....

[LANCECASPER]

King unfortunately has a bad track record with GA certification.....They STILL have no STC for a KT74 install....

 

Maybe Aspen will step in and save King again  

http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2011/March/23/Aspen-Honeywell-Bendix-King-to-bring-KSN-770-MFD-to-market

 

 

Seriously, if it's worth 6000 to replace your spinning AI, why isn't it worth 12000 to replace the AI and the HSI and all the hardware and weight that goes with it?   If you do it while either of them are still working you can recoup some of your money.

[Alan Fox]

Its not that the king cant be installed , but why is the Largest manufacturer of avionics relying on an FBO (Perregrine) for an STC.....

[PTK]

Maybe Aspen will step in and save King again

http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2011/March/23/Aspen-Honeywell-Bendix-King-to-bring-KSN-770-MFD-to-market

Seriously, if it's worth 6000 to replace your spinning AI, why isn't it worth 12000 to replace the AI and the HSI and all the hardware and weight that goes with it? If you do it while either of them are still working you can recoup some of your money.

Because 6K for a brand new state of the art replacement of the existing old technology AI is peanuts. Box for box replacement with nothing less but a lot more.

On the other hand 12K for an Aspen does not provide the same functionality. To get anywhere close to mimick that functionality you're looking at closer to 20K and that's G500 country. Certainly not going to pay that kind of money and get stuck with Aspen when can go into the G500!

[LANCECASPER]

Because 6K for a brand new state of the art replacement of the existing old technology AI is peanuts. Box for box replacement with nothing less but a lot more.

On the other hand 12K for an Aspen does not provide the same functionality. To get anywhere close to mimick that functionality you're looking at closer to 20K and that's G500 country. Certainly not going to pay that kind of money and get stuck with Aspen when can go into the G500!

 

Get stuck with the Aspen . . lol?? That's hilarious. They are both good systems. Each person gets to make the choice and thousands of satisfied Aspen owners are happy that they're stuck with the Aspens I guess, just like thousands are happy that they're stuck with the G500.

[Marauder]

Because 6K for a brand new state of the art replacement of the existing old technology AI is peanuts. Box for box replacement with nothing more and nothing less.

On the other hand 12K for an Aspen does not provide the same functionality. To get anywhere close to mimick that functionality you're looking at closer to 20K and that's G500 country. Certainly not going to pay that kind of money and get stuck with Aspen when can go into the G500!

Peter -- I really wish you get some significant stick time with any of these systems. Riding around in a "buddy's Bonanza" is not the same as using these systems and learning the full feature sets they have to offer.

Each has their merits and their drawbacks. And it comes down to understanding what you are getting for your money and the trade-offs you are making based on the plane you have them installed in. For me, having a single electrical system, it is important to have redundancy. And that's what I bought.

As for the KI-300, you are getting an AHRS AI with a battery backup specifically designed to work with the King series autopilots. Nothing more. And from their site, it doesn't mention any flight director support.

So to compare the KI-300 to either an Aspen or G500 isn't fair to it.

Now for the BIG question. You see my latest Garmin addition? Huh, did ya? I would dump that nasty old King KX-155 you have for the latest Garmin Nav/Com. Completely integrated with my wonderful (wonderful again) GTN 650. And since I bought the 16W version, I can be heard louder than you now! So here goes; Garmin makes the best stuff!

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[Marauder]

And, oh, BTW -- Garmin just announced they are opening up the Capstone protocol on their GDL-88. So guess who will be getting one to install on their Aspens?

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[Alan Fox]

I love the fact that Pete Garm  thinks its a slide in replacement......its not , probably a 6 hour install..

[Marauder]

I love the fact that Pete Garm thinks its a slide in replacement......its not , probably a 6 hour install..

Do you know if it has flight director support? Those who have it today won't be happy if it doesn't.

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[aviatoreb]

Do you also believe that someday there's gonna be a little Richard Simmons Jr. running around? It's not gonna happen.   

 

Richard and I are watching a movie together on Netflix right now.  Is there something you want me to ask him?

 

Seriously though...I do love the elegance of my swiss-watch-like panel.  I will go digital someday, but not yet...

[aviatoreb]

Well then, I just hope the KI 300 gets its certification soon, because from my experience the KI 256 OH'd, due to its mechanical behavior and gyro peculiarities, is just not up to the task when it comes to comfortable instrument flying in this days and age--especially when its failure modes can be either mechanical, vacuum, or both.  Recognizing the financial implication of upgrading even to the Aspen, is your life and those of our family really not worth the difference of just a couple of thousand dollars  even if you are a CB?

 

Yes - a compelling argument.  And I probably will do something at next overhaul.

 

At least for now, I have a second certified attitude indicator, an all electric "life saver", and a 3rd uncertified attitude indication from the gdl39, and supposedly we are all trained in partial panel based on the turn coordinator - although I always figured that is well and good but Im going to do everything I can to never need that skill trained.

 

A little bit related - GRT came out with a beautiful little unit called the grt mini that "temporary mounts" to the panel in an open hole of a certified airplane, for $1400. 

 

http://grtavionics.com/mini.html

 

It also shows SVT - I almost bought it on the spot at Oshkosh last month until I found out it does not have a backup battery built in - but through emailing with them, they said the next iteration will, in 2nd quarter of next year.  I will likely buy that then.  And when my KI256 needs an OH, if options are as they are today I may go KI300.  Or I may go Aspen, or G500?  Or G3X - or whatever are the options then, hopefully in no less than a year or two.

 

I bet King is working on a digital replacement for the HSI?

[aviatoreb]

I love the fact that Pete Garm  thinks its a slide in replacement......its not , probably a 6 hour install..

 

I probably started that rumor - its not a slide in?

[aviatoreb]

So to compare the KI-300 to either an Aspen or G500 isn't fair to it.

 

 

It is fair from the stand point that one finds oneself in a position to choose between them.

 

Without a doubt, if money were no object, I would get a G500.

 

I have no doubt that the Aspen is better than my current King mechanical attitude-HSI KFC200 system - but what I have is a beautiful system.  I have been maintaining it in tip top shape and pre-emptively overhauling it and most every critical system in my airplane.  I consider it a luxury to upgrade, and a luxury I will allow myself at some point.  Once I decide what I really want.

[Marauder]

It is fair from the stand point that one finds oneself in a position to choose between them.

 

Without a doubt, if money were no object, I would get a G500.

 

I have no doubt that the Aspen is better than my current King mechanical attitude-HSI KFC200 system - but what I have is a beautiful system.  I have been maintaining it in tip top shape and pre-emptively overhauling it and most every critical system in my airplane.  I consider it a luxury to upgrade, and a luxury I will allow myself at some point.  Once I decide what I really want.

 

Your comments do bring up a bit of nostalgia and memories of days gone by. I remember back in 1988 when I awestruck at the guy who stuck a Northstar M1 LORAN in his plane. I thought technology had reached its pinnacle. Little did I know...

 

Even 3 years ago, cutting edge for me was a VFR GPS backing up my /A airplane filled with paper charts. Times have changed and with it the technology. And what a ride it is becoming. To think, my biggest concern in 2012 was a complete vacuum failure and an infected paper cut from my Jepps. No matter what you put in your plane, the advantages of today's technologies is evident especially for onboard weather and traffic alerts. 

 

How many still have a catalog case in a closet that you used for your Jepps? Come on, fess up. 

[Marauder]

because from my experience the KI 256 OH'd, due to its mechanical behavior and gyro peculiarities, is just not up to the task when it comes to comfortable instrument flying in this days and age--especially when its failure modes can be either mechanical, vacuum, or both.  

 

Heresy you say! Peter has told us that the KI-256 is a Swiss watch and is as reliable as one! 

[mike_elliott]

It really is an apples vs oranges thing.  I've got tons of time behind the KI256, the Aspens (both single and dual tubes), the G1000, and most recently the G500 in my airplane (for the past year and a half).

 

I overhauled my KI256 3 times.  Each time it lasted a little over 1,000 hours.  It only failed the first time and I preemptively overhauled them the two additional times, since I do a lot of IFR flying.  In the end the KI 256 really never behaved properly after the overhauls, and maybe not even originally.  It was satisfactory not to kill someone, but ALWAYS in a left turn to final when rolling out level the AI was off at least 5° from level.  I never liked that.  On the cheap, the new KI 300 looked really good at Oshkosh.  I hope they get it certified soon for those who for cost or sentimental reasons want to operate with the legacy instrumentation.

 

The Aspen is "adequate" and really does a lot for a modest amount of money, but as the saying goes (well, maybe I'm making it up) it isn't a G500.  In my opinion the G500 is the Rolls Royce of the panel upgrades.  It is the most comfortable panel I have flown behind, including the G1000.  You do pay for that privilege, however.  With the new ESI 500 that will be out by November according to my contacts at L-3, a backup similar to the 2nd screen Aspen will be available for the G500 that includes navigation (both lateral and vertical), SVT, VS, independent heading, sync'd baro, and backup battery.  I plan to sell my ESI 2000 and put that unit in when it becomes available.  It'll be like having a mini G500 in the panel as a backup.

 

I've now made numerous trips all over the country with my system and the power of the new technology is just amazing. The Flight Stream 210 turned out to be a huge surprise as to its usefulness, even with a fully equipped airplane such as mine.

And your panel is indeed a beautiful system, Don. If 20x the cost (or more) of the OH is in the budget, why not? My only point was to say at 6000, King ki300 might not be the best bang for the buck. Yes its on the "cheap" compared to your panel, but not for what its deliverables are compared to what else is available for slightly more. The Aspen fills this gap very nicely, with a deliverable list that exceeds anything for the same cost. No, its not as  big of a display as the g500, but very adequate, leaving panel space to put the many AMU's you will save with an aspen system.

Personally, if cost were no object, I would do something very similar to what you have done with the G500, recognizing my ongoing subscription costs will be higher also. But we digress, this isn't a panel weenie wag, it is a discussion of the best options

 

Sink 2500 into a ki256 repair and get ready to do it again in 5 to 7 years of normal flying, less if flown a lot.

Sink 6000 into an unknown ki600 and ground the plane until it becomes available and take the chance it will have any kind of reliability being an early adapter

Sink 12K into an aspen and convert your plane from steam guage plane to a glass panel plane

Sink 28K into a G500 and convert your plane from a steam guage plane to a glass panel plane

Sink 100K+ and get a plane with this all done in it

Sink 800K and get a new Acclaim

[mike_elliott]

On ‎8‎/‎13‎/‎2015 at 4:44 AM, PTK said:

With the KI 300 he can buy a brand new one for similar money as overhauling old one!

Not only a brand new but one with technology that will outlast the old many times over.

That's what King is offering us with the KI 300 for a very reasonable 6K. It's really that simple.

 

No it is 2.4 times the money. He can over haul his existing Ki256 2.4 times, or get about 2400 more hours out of it than purchasing a ki300

He cannot purchase a KI300 today. His plane is grounded, and It is vaporware. Why try to sell this to him today, Peter King? It doesn't exist!

 

The Ki300 is brand new technology. Where is the data to back up your assertion that it will outlast the old many times over. Gut feeling blind study?

It really is that simple.