Very frustrating. This does not help GA.

[DXB]

Horrible tragedy. Engine failure at 3000 over populated area. No runway in glide distance.  IMC with low ceiling.  Listening to the ATC was truly sad- leaves me feeling that there was little hope after the engine quit, irrespective of the pilot's skill and experience level. Only way of averting may have been not to do the trip at all.  I crave getting my instrument rating, but not  for trips like this. I also have not flown at night since getting my license and am in no rush to do so.  

 

But when I think about it, would I be much better off if the same happened to me today in day VMC over a large, densely populated area?  Over dense forest?  On initial climb at my home field in an urban area?   Keeping oneself in a favorable situation at all times for losing the engine seems futile, but luckily these accidents are the small minority. It might be best just to take care of your engine, practice the engine out checklist, and then choose to worry only about all the stuff where your day to day decision making makes a real difference.   

[gsengle]

VMC over densely populated area: I'd give myself many thousands of feet glide to make it to at least a highway, or similar.  We glide a heck of a long way at 8500ft.  Know where the winds are coming from.

 

Dense forest?  Keep from stalling, fly straight ahead, and you have a decent chance. In the east, at decent altitude I usually have options.  And be talking to ATC so someone knows where you are.

 

Initial climb from home field in urban area?  Definitely think about and decide on your options IN ADVANCE, and scout them.  In my case, I have tons of farmers fields at my home field 7B2, as well as an interstate I have scouted.  Long clear straightaways and medians.  I would pick my home field if I can with these considerations in mind.

 

So yes, I'd worry about all of the above, and plan altitude accordingly, but none of it is anywhere near as bad as failure in IMC with low ceilings.

 

g

[wishboneash]

Perhaps it may be a good idea to load an offline mapping program which you can run on a tablet (e.g CoPilot for Android or Google maps offline). At least gives you an idea of what is under you when at night/IMC. You would know where golf courses, open spaces, main roads are. At the same time helps you to avoid crashing into residential areas which should be quite easy to see on a map. Some day it may be possible to have a Google Earth type database for offline use which would be even better.

[gsengle]

I also found it interesting that ATC had to tell the pilot where the highway was, even on my 530 those highways are shown; I don't turn that off to declutter.

 

 

Perhaps it may be a good idea to load an offline mapping program which you can run on a tablet (e.g CoPilot for Android or Google maps offline). At least gives you an idea of what is under you when at night/IMC. You would know where golf courses, open spaces, main roads are. At the same time helps you to avoid crashing into residential areas which should be quite easy to see on a map. Some day it may be possible to have a Google Earth type database for offline use which would be even better.

[Robert C.]

Ouch. That hit close to home. I landed at KDXR (Danbury, CT) about 15 min before he crashed and learned a bunch of things that day, and a few more reading this thread (I’m a 250hr inexperienced IFR rated PPL who told himself his personal minimum for now is MVFR).

 

For those of you from out of the region: an occluded front straddled the Northeast over the weekend. It moved first slower and then faster than predicted (to the Northeast) and then slowed again. Every conceivable sigmet was active: LL Turb, LL Windshear, LIFR, Icing, etc.

 

I was scheduled to visit a friend in Holland, Michigan. I planned Saturday-Sunday, then changed it to Friday-Saturday to beat the system’s arrival. It then sped up and on Saturday it completely covered my route over NY and PA. I told my friend he was stuck with me another day and left Sunday at 2pm figuring I’d be following the tail end of the system as it moved out. When I left the entire Northeast was IFR or Low IFR. My destination was below minimums but area airports with TAFs predicted above minimums weather by 5pm so I left anyway.

 

The system must have slowed down again because when I got there the NY region was at minimums everywhere and I assume was even nastier near Boston as it would have had more of the weather that makes an occluded front so dangerous. So I started looking at diverting. Ironically I briefly considered Lancaster but settled on Wilkes Barrie and Allentown as the best options, well behind the front and showing above minimum ceilings.

 

In the end I decided to have a look as I figured that with several more hours of fuel on board (gotta love 100 gal tanks) I had the option to go to DXR and then fly 1 hr south to better weather.

 

I flew the Loc 8 approach to minimums and made it in, but if I had had engine problems I would have been in the same boat.

 

Next time I think I’d better impose on my friend and stay another day, or go find out what Allentown or Wilkes-Barrie look like on a cloudy day.

[cliffy]

The effects of this tragedy are far reaching, even more so than just the family. All of my flying experience

has brought me to my "personal minimums" for SE flying. But the most impressional moment I ever had was when

I was just a PP in my teens. I had a close friend in high school who also flew. We palled around a lot as we were

the only ones we knew who were pilots in school. Right after graduation I had to attend his funeral. My first funeral

among several throughout the years that were aviation related. The first one makes a big impression. He flew

with another friend in a C150 up to Lake Powell (then just filling up after the dam was built). He landed on the

shore line in the summer and tried to take off, stayed in ground effect and crashed in the lake and drown.

It woke me up to the fact that what we do and what we enjoy has serious consequences-it can kill us!

Hopefully, those of you who have never experienced the loss of a good friend to aviation never will. But, if

you ever do, it will change your thinking before every fight. You will still enjoy the feeling of flight but

your outlook and planning will take on a new importance.

BTW, I now live near the shore of Lake Powell and see it every day from my front window. I think of my friend

every time I go out the door to the airport.

[Marauder]

Ouch. That hit close to home. I landed at KDXR (Danbury, CT) about 15 min before he crashed and learned a bunch of things that day, and a few more reading this thread (I’m a 250hr inexperienced IFR rated PPL who told himself his personal minimum for now is MVFR).

For those of you from out of the region: an occluded front straddled the Northeast over the weekend. It moved first slower and then faster than predicted (to the Northeast) and then slowed again. Every conceivable sigmet was active: LL Turb, LL Windshear, LIFR, Icing, etc.

I was scheduled to visit a friend in Holland, Michigan. I planned Saturday-Sunday, then changed it to Friday-Saturday to beat the system’s arrival. It then sped up and on Saturday it completely covered my route over NY and PA. I told my friend he was stuck with me another day and left Sunday at 2pm figuring I’d be following the tail end of the system as it moved out. When I left the entire Northeast was IFR or Low IFR. My destination was below minimums but area airports with TAFs predicted above minimums weather by 5pm so I left anyway.

The system must have slowed down again because when I got there the NY region was at minimums everywhere and I assume was even nastier near Boston as it would have had more of the weather that makes an occluded front so dangerous. So I started looking at diverting. Ironically I briefly considered Lancaster but settled on Wilkes Barrie and Allentown as the best options, well behind the front and showing above minimum ceilings.

In the end I decided to have a look as I figured that with several more hours of fuel on board (gotta love 100 gal tanks) I had the option to go to DXR and then fly 1 hr south to better weather.

I flew the Loc 8 approach to minimums and made it in, but if I had had engine problems I would have been in the same boat.

Next time I think I’d better impose on my friend and stay another day, or go find out what Allentown or Wilkes-Barrie look like on a cloudy day.

The weather in the Northeast can be challenging. The Applachians and Andirondacks both can harbor their fair share of challenging weather. It can be pretty clear and beautiful

Or "Winter VFR"

Or summer bangers building up

You just need to stack things in your favor and hope for the rest to fall into place.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[fantom]

Flying is neither for the timid nor for those prone to jumping to rash conclusions.....This accident is sad, not frustrating, and we can all learn from it. Balance in everything, especially go-no go risk decisions. Just because you beat the odds the last 99 times is no reason to feel comfortable you'll get away with it next time.

 

"Take nothing for granted; do not jump to conclusions; follow every possible clue to the extent of usefulness . . . . Apply the principle that there is no limit to the amount of effort justified to prevent the recurrence of one aircraft accident or the loss of one life."

~ Accident Investigation Manual of the U.S. Air Force.

[gsengle]

If I have to put myself in a position where I'm one equipment failure away from zero options, I will not fly.

[Andy95W]

If I have to put myself in a position where I'm one equipment failure away from zero options, I will not fly.

Unfortunately you will have to either violate that policy or trade in your Ovation for a twin.

[Jim Peace]

When I wrote about thinking of safer routes and not flying over widespread low IMC in another thread.....(the one about flying over the everglades) I got jumped on from all directions about how ridiculous I was.  Also about installing 406 ELT's in how much of a waste of money it was....

 

What changed between now and 6 months ago?  I really would like to know......

 

where are all the pilots that say flying around with widespread low IMC is safe in a single engine now?

 

Think about what you are doing.....this is not a multi engine turbine with all weather capability and triple redundancy in systems....Just because your ovation or b36 is several hundred thousand dollars does not change the fact that you are flying a lawn mower with wings.....

 

A cirrus parachute would have been great in this situation but I would not even have planned to put myself in those weather conditions with a cirrus.....

[Shadrach]

Unfortunately you will have to either violate that policy or trade in your Ovation for a twin.

Exactly! He didn't have zero options, he had one option…and it was a shitty one. If I were to lose an engine at the IAF of the ILS approach into my home drome, I'd be in the weeds before I got the next intersection. If I lost it on the outbound course rehearsal I'd end up in a densely forested mountainous area.

I'm betting everyone on this board has put themselves in a situation in an airplane where they really had only one option in the event of an engine failure… Even if only for a few minutes.

[Andy95W]

Not trying to hijack the thread, but an interesting adjunct to this discussion is from the Avionics forum, "Convince me I need to replace my KLN 94 with a G430W."

Basically, I don't need a WAAS GPS to do LPV approaches because, basically, my personal single engine minimums are between 600 and 1000 AGL- nice, non-precision GPS approach weather. If the weather catches me off guard, I'll take an ILS, thank you.

Oh, and the WAAS GPS is more than 1/4 the value of my airplane.

So why do I still want a GTN-750?

[cliffy]

NO is always an option and too many lose sight of that fact.

91.3 the most often sighted FAR in any violation process-

"The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for,

and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft."

That includes saying NO when its appropriate.

[Marauder]

Not trying to hijack the thread, but an interesting adjunct to this discussion is from the Avionics forum, "Convince me I need to replace my KLN 94 with a G430W."

Basically, I don't need a WAAS GPS to do LPV approaches because, basically, my personal single engine minimums are between 600 and 1000 AGL- nice, non-precision GPS approach weather. If the weather catches me off guard, I'll take an ILS, thank you.

Oh, and the WAAS GPS is more than 1/4 the value of my airplane.

So why do I still want a GTN-750?

That was the decade long argument I had with myself about the need for a GPS at all. I would still be flying my VOR equipped Mooney if it was not for the fact that two of my favorite destinations dropped the VOR approaches and went with LNAVs. Now that I have 2.5 years flying them, I wonder why I waited so long. Although they haven't changed my minimums, I find the magenta line a lot easier to understand my situational awareness during an approach. Anyone who shot an NDB approach can appreciate that comment.

I think unfortunately though the dependence on the technology can erode some basic airman skills if not create an overconfidence in the technology to keep them out of trouble. Doubt that was what happened here but certainly played a role in that accident that AOPA profiled in the Midwest.

[gsengle]

My previous post gave some examples of options, so I completely disagree with you.  If my engine fails at 8500 feet on a CAVU day, I can pick a landing spot.  If its IMC, and I still have 1000 feet of ceiling below, I can choose the baseball field over the houses.  If I loose it at 500 feet coming out of my home field, I have a nice corn field.

 

Where I am one mechanical failure away from rolling a badly stacked set of dice is IMC with very low ceilings below.  As so sadly demonstrated by this accident.

 

g

 

Unfortunately you will have to either violate that policy or trade in your Ovation for a twin.

[Andy95W]

g-

I don't disagree with what you are saying, simply pointing out that at some point during a flight, particularly just after departure, we are all one failure (engine) away from disaster. Too low to turn back, too high to land on the remaining runway.

For me, at my home airport, if I have an engine failure departing west bound above 100 feet and below 600 feet, I will end up in a housing development with no other options available to me. I bet you have had similar dilemmas yourself, but accepted the risk, hoped for the best, and went.

God willing, I will never have to face that nightmare.

[gsengle]

Takeoff is the only time I'll accept the no good options on engine failure; that said my home field has great options off both runway ends (corn fields), and I do scout/review options prior to takeoff, if only on the map.

 

My only point is we can in large part control where we are only one mechanical failure from no options.  I prefer, having had 2 partial failures, and a third running rough emergency precautionary landing, to always give myself options.  Generally this involves a good amount of altitude, and ability to see the ground well before you intersect it.  It means very little night flying, and no IMC where the ceilings are generally below 1000AGL, given I'm in a single.  I try and avoid airports where my takeoff performance would have to be perfect.

 

I have a backup AI and backup GPS and backup radio or two and alternator and battery and and and, again because of the one failure from disaster principle.  But just one engine.

 

I'm not convinced of the safety of light twins, given the double odds of engine trouble...  If you all wanna chip in, it would be a TBM or Pilatus for me!

 

g

[Andy95W]

That TBM 850 is nice. Drool...

[bonal]

I don't know if it works when in flight and I will have to check next cross country but my Fore Flight has a sat view that shows terrain same as Google earth seems like that could be very helpful to put yourself in position for when you come out of the clouds or at night.

there was a TBM850 on the ramp at Sonoma jet last weekend  Very Nice.

[Shadrach]

It means very little night flying, and no IMC where the ceilings are generally below 1000AGL, given I'm in a single.  I try and avoid airports where my takeoff performance would have to be perfect.

 

g

No IMC where the ceilings are below 1000AGL feels great... and it works well in places like Iowa, Texas, Kansas etc... Does not mean much in areas with varied topography.  Bases of 1000ft AGL at my drome mean the bases are just 300ft off the mountains on the ILS and those mountains are blanketed in a canopy of trees that are 80 to 100ft AGL.   

[Shadrach]

I don't know if it works when in flight and I will have to check next cross country but my Fore Flight has a sat view that shows terrain same as Google earth seems like that could be very helpful to put yourself in position for when you come out of the clouds or at night.

there was a TBM850 on the ramp at Sonoma jet last weekend  Very Nice.

Are you based at Sonoma?

[gsengle]

I hear ya, I'm not in Iowa, but neither am I in the Rockies flying mostly in the Northeast.  It just means I don't fly those days...  In my case I will never *need* to make a flight...

 

Luckily also, in the northeast, there is an airport every 15nm or so, so if I'm at any altitude, I'm at glide distance to some runway.  What scares me is at 2000agl on the approach droning along to the FAF with no way to make the runway and losing an engine with no ceilings below.

 

No IMC where the ceilings are below 1000AGL feels great... and it works well in places like Iowa, Texas, Kansas etc... Does not mean much in areas with varied topography.  Bases of 1000ft AGL at my drome mean the bases are just 300ft off the mountains on the ILS and those mountains are blanketed in a canopy of trees that are 80 to 100ft AGL.   

[bonal]

Are you based at Sonoma?

 

Nope, but we visit there often

[N33GG]

No IMC where the ceilings are below 1000AGL feels great... and it works well in places like Iowa, Texas, Kansas etc... Does not mean much in areas with varied topography.  Bases of 1000ft AGL at my drome mean the bases are just 300ft off the mountains on the ILS and those mountains are blanketed in a canopy of trees that are 80 to 100ft AGL.

Doesn't work well if you fly in or out of the Texas Gulf Coast with persistent fog and low ceilings!