Interesting conversation today

[Mcstealth]

I was working at the store today, and I saw a Mooney shirt. Of course I had to strike up a conversation. The gentleman turned out to be a West coast salesman for the company. We touched on a lot of topics about the past, present, and future. Talked parachute, UL, landing gear, second door, competition, and the such. I started pushing on useful load, which led to the weight conversation related to landing gear and extra weight if adding a parachute or second door.......Well. The salesman stopped and smiled, and let loose with " watch for an announcement in September "

And that was it. He has knowledge of a late third quarter announcement, that is not M10 related.

As I said, interesting conversation.

DF

[carusoam]

David, you are the eyes and ears in the right neighborhood...!

Best regards,

-a-

[Tommy]

Mooney announces M5 complete with heavy duty wheels, ballistic parachute, and second door.

 

Useful load of one.

 

Hence no one knows why the second door...

 

[cliffy]

If one thinks outside the box it's not too hard to come up with a smooth skin,

composite Mooney airframe keeping the original exterior shape but filling with

a composite structure (just as strong as what we have now and better aerodynamics) with the use of CAD/CAM

design (like the M10? :-).

This is just speculation on my part, but at the West Coast Summit

we were shown pictures of CAD Mooney's and then the actual airplane. Both identical.

Once the outside demensions are locked in, going to internal structure is not hard. That

could bring the parts count and labor hours to produce down (this is the Achillies heal of

Mooney production)to a mangable level. Then take a look at the M10 interior designs and see

how advanced they are compared to our "old school" technology interiors and what do you see?

Cirrus type style? BMW style interiors?

Start thinking outside the box. We could be witnessing a revolution in Mooney production.

[jetdriven]

A composite M20 airplane is going to be s totally new airplane, and then, why limit yourself to the same size and shape of the metal airplane?

[1964-M20E]

looking at the conceptual photos they did just that but they kept the Mooney looking tail.

[Hank]

looking at the conceptual photos they did just that but they kept the Mooney looking tail.

The kept the look, but not the functionality. Rigid tail = trim tabs = unMooneylike drag.

[Alan Fox]

I wonder how much drag a fixed tail uses over an articulating tail.....Either way , the tail has to "fly" ....Its not a weather vane..... 

[Mcstealth]

If I was a betting man, I would guess second door. It wasn't said or implied, but taking into account where I was in the conversation, second door seems reasonable.

I don't know if that development alone will make enough of a difference to drive more sales. We all know why Cirrus sells the most. I don't see a second door alone making the difference. Maybe it is just the first step?

DF

[Tommy]

I seriously doubt a second door will have much of a positive impact on the sale.

Cirrus isn't really that different from any other similar modern GA aircraft in terms of pricing, performance (useful load, speed, and efficiency), and looks. So what makes it so successful then?

Well there is only one thing that Cirrus has that no one else has...

[AndyFromCB]

I seriously doubt a second door will have much of a positive impact on the sale.

Cirrus isn't really that much different from any other similar modern GA aircraft in terms of pricing, performance (useful load, speed, and efficiency), and looks. So what makes it so successful then?

Well there is only one thing that Cirrus has that no one else has...

 

Actually, now it has a useful load advantage over any other factory piston. Plus what is the best integrated avionics package as well. But yes, the chute sells it.

[Lood]

Personally, I don't care much for a parachute and I would much rather sacrifice a few knots for better weight carrying ability...

 

No use in being able to fly at 240 odd kts, but being stuck with a good two seat airplane, when you've filled the tanks. Then, on the other hand, the Acclaim is so fast, that you can put in only 60 gal of fuel, carry a reasonable load and still do a 600nm trip. No matter which way one looks at it, Mooney's are extremely efficient!!

[1964-M20E]

The kept the look, but not the functionality. Rigid tail = trim tabs = unMooneylike drag.

Hank true but all the other interfaces of the horizontal and vertical surfaces are streamlines so maybe a wash.

 

I do like how the Mooney flies with the whole tail articulated it gives more authority to the trim inputs.  Also should we find ourselves supersonic in the Mooney we can still maintain control.  Yeager figured this out when we first went supersonic.

[cliffy]

For the way I fly and many others that I have seen, we use our Mooney as a 2 place airplane "most" of the time.

For that, the M10 with room in the back for "stuff" might be a reasonable option. For training in China it hits

what they want right on the head.

It may be too early to speculate too much on what if any a "new" Mooney might debute as. My feeling is that

though the parachute may be a selling point, it is not the only determing factor. Look at design and cool interiors.

I feel these are probably just as important as the chute to new buyers. No matter what you do with our old school

airplanes, they are still old school in design. And people see that.

There is a certain cache about the "Mooney design" that may be advantageous to keep as an over riding design theme.

BUT, the innerds can be changed the make the total airplane competative in cost to produce compared to the rest

of the new style airplane coming on the market.

[Tommy]

I agree that many factors help in determining the sales but, as much as we loathe the BRS and think it's more a gimmick than anything else, it truly is the only REAL difference between Cirrus and the rest of the field - at least to the lay person (ie. your spouse and non-pilot friends)! 

 

And who do we all need to convince when it comes to spending $500K on a toy that can potentially cause grievous bodily harm?

 

So I say to Mooney, have it as an option on your new aircraft and I can guaranteed you that you have a winner (okay, it will eat into the useful load and okay it will increase the maintenance cost and okay it doesn't work all the time) - os it's not an aviation winner but a sales winner. 

[AndyFromCB]

I agree that many factors help in determining the sales but, as much as we loathe the BRS and think it's more a gimmick than anything else, it truly is the only REAL difference between Cirrus and the rest of the field - at least to the lay person (ie. your spouse and non-pilot friends)! 

 

And who do we all need to convince when it comes to spending $500K on a toy that can potentially cause grievous bodily harm?

 

So I say to Mooney, have it as an option on your new aircraft and I can guaranteed you that you have a winner (okay, it will eat into the useful load and okay it will increase the maintenance cost and okay it doesn't work all the time) - os it's not an aviation winner but a sales winner. 

 

I don't loathe the BRS. I think it's another tool in the toolbox. I've flown my Bravo in areas where I looked out the window and realized that my survival was at best 50/50 if I had en engine issue at the moment. With BRS and bit of gliding to most suitable area (where I would put my survival at 50/50 in a Mooney), I felt my survival would be 99.9%. If I had a BRS and FLIR equipped aircraft, I would also fly at night and I would fly over more low IFR weather than I am willing to deal with today.

 

If Mooney wants to even have a chance, their new aircraft must be BRS equipped and must have more than just a basic installation of G1000. At the very least, find a place for the keypad and autopilot control head.

[carusoam]

Adding to the data points...

How much ballast do we have in general?

Can a ballistic chute take the space and weight of the Charlie weights?

I can imagine hanging by straps attached to the steel cage after some plastic roof parts are broken away.

Sharing an idea,

-a-

[cliffy]

The new Pipistrel (sp) has a chute and the plane comes down level and not nose down like the Cirrus.

Just thinking, nose down would be better for the shoulder harness/seat belt forces and my back ain't as

good as it used to be for dropping in seated upright. Just thinking.

[AndyFromCB]

The new Pipistrel (sp) has a chute and the plane comes down level and not nose down like the Cirrus.

Just thinking, nose down would be better for the shoulder harness/seat belt forces and my back ain't as

good as it used to be for dropping in seated upright. Just thinking.

 

I'm not sure what you mean nose first. It's only like that for few seconds while the canopy inflates and the forward speed bleeds off...

[cliffy]

I thought it was more nose down than level. Maybe just the pictures I've seen

show it that way. Pipistrel (sp) says that given the terrain, its reapirable after

chute decent.

[bonal]

I see that Icon is getting their LSA cert and they have over 1200 orders base price is 200k it has a chute and is amphibious and can be easily trailered. Based on the orders looks like they might have found the formula for success. Lake county CA has an annual splash in and they are supposed to be there.

[Mcstealth]

I see that Icon is getting their LSA cert and they have over 1200 orders base price is 200k it has a chute and is amphibious and can be easily trailered. Based on the orders looks like they might have found the formula for success. Lake county CA has an annual splash in and they are supposed to be there.

Didn't they get a weight exemption? Or something like that?