Departure stall

[Danb]

Well learned why we practice departure stalls, at the last mapa school I practiced these with Jerry J (btw thanx J). I departed Kilg for Kdet yesterday no big deal wind about 12/g19 from 330 on rw 32...upon climb out at about 200 Msl and just cleaned up the Bravo I had a violent pitch up aoa and stall horn started was screaming doing 100 indicated and used all my might to push yoke over and re trim plane to pick up airspeed which rapidly went from 100 to 60-65 knots..first what happened, I luckily got under control( I have over 3000 hrs Mooney time). I'm going over and over the situation to ascertain did I screw up or what occurred Wind shear?? Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated, had rather strong off and on turbulence up to about 700o ft...I'm clueless I think.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Did you land immediately or keep flying?

Check tail AD

[aviatoreb]

Well learned why we practice departure stalls, at the last mapa school I practiced these with Jerry J (btw thanx J). I departed Kilg for Kdet yesterday no big deal wind about 12/g19 from 330 on rw 32...upon climb out at about 200 Msl and just cleaned up the Bravo I had a violent pitch up aoa and stall horn started was screaming doing 100 indicated and used all my might to push yoke over and re trim plane to pick up airspeed which rapidly went from 100 to 60-65 knots..first what happened, I luckily got under control( I have over 3000 hrs Mooney time). I'm going over and over the situation to ascertain did I screw up or what occurred Wind shear?? Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated, had rather strong off and on turbulence up to about 700o ft...I'm clueless I think.

 

I think it was wind shear.

 

I flew out of Princeton, 39N yesterday afternoon.  At about 500ft agl I too hit a nice bit of wind shear.  Also at about 100 indicated, my stall horn was chirping at me - not a full stall blaring like you are describing, but definitely chirping on and off and with briefly the aoa showing high aoa.  A little pitch down and it stopped and I continued climb normally.

 

In the morning yesterday I flew in to 39N, and moved my schedule forward early since I could see that there was going to be some severe cross winds starting at around 8am.  Arriving at 730am winds were 10kts 90 degrees to the runway.  But at 500 feet agl there was a VERY strong prevailing wind (which carried me down KPTD to 39N due south at a ground speed ~235-240kts the whole way).  With a stable approach - breaking into the calmer layer made for a strong brief destabilization coming through 500ft and a less than squeeker landing, but nothing out of whack.  By 8am winds were as promised gusting to 25kts 90 degrees to the runway, and I was very glad we had gotten up very early to fly!

 

And it was nice to have breakfast with Tony!

[chrisk]

Being a low time pilot, I'd guess wind shear.  The pitch up has me scratching my head.  Was your auto pilot on?  And does it have altitude pre-select? 

[Parker_Woodruff]

I'm not quite sure on the windsheer theory. A loss of airspeed due to windsheer would cause the nose to drop.

Unless there was an initial increase of airspeed and pitch up, followed by a rapid decrease in airspeed, then this doesn't make sense and is why I suggested the tail AD.

Can you be a little more detailed in the order of events with airspeed and pitch changes? Were you able to return the trim to a more normal setting?

Was the autopilot on when you experienced the pitch-up?

[wiguy]

12 gusting to 19 from 330 while taking off on 32 isn't terrible, just a little bumpy likely. The line between very gusty winds and actual wind shear can blur somewhat. One factor can also be type of equipment one is flying.

Just to analyze a takeoff somewhat, having it mostly all headwind is a good thing. High gust from a cross is more problematic. In general one would want to carry a few extra knots to deal with gusts. Don't leave the runway until you have those extra knots. One can expect some bumps. While on climb out fly the proper pitch attitude allowing the airspeed to dance around. You have the extra margin, so just take the average with the airspeed indicator.

If it's a real strong wind I like to make that initial turn airborne into the wind, not downwind. As an example, taking off on runway 36 with winds from 330 at 30 knots, I'll start with a left turn. I realize you enter a 'sea of air', but I like that climb angle much more with a turn into the wind.

The landing becomes another animal. For starters, one should never be 'surprised' the winds came up, check the forecast. You don't want to fly to a runway 18/36 destination with the winds 270 at 25 gusting to 33. At least if you don't have to.

[FloridaMan]

Out of curiosity; were you climbing at Vx or Vy? It's always concerning when a more experienced pilot gets a noteworthy upset.

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[Marauder]

Dan -- being based at KILG for a dozen years, RWY32 departures can be affected by the winds crossing over those buildings south of the field as well as that swale at the end of the runway. Did it happen pretty close to the old MBNA hangar?

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[aviatoreb]

What I described in my flight yesterday (I jumped in since I believe 39N is close enough to KILG that weather was similar), was not scary or unexpected, but both on approach and departure yesterday I had indications of some pretty strong wind shear, which I was anticipating both times.

[atn_pilot]

Sounds like a classic case of wind shear to me. Follows the usual pattern. The violent pitch up and rapid increase in speed to over 100 is your increasing performance wind shear, then the horn and rapid drop of airspeed to 60 is the loss of the shear (or in a microburst situation would be the decreasing performance shear on the other side of the burst). Sounds like you handled it well.

Wind shear is a killer. Everyone should spend some time rehearsing what they'll do in a wind shear situation and reviewing what the indications are every now and then.

[Marauder]

I think it was wind shear.

I flew out of Princeton, 39N yesterday afternoon. At about 500ft agl I too hit a nice bit of wind shear. Also at about 100 indicated, my stall horn was chirping at me - not a full stall blaring like you are describing, but definitely chirping on and off and with briefly the aoa showing high aoa. A little pitch down and it stopped and I continued climb normally.

In the morning yesterday I flew in to 39N, and moved my schedule forward early since I could see that there was going to be some severe cross winds starting at around 8am. Arriving at 730am winds were 10kts 90 degrees to the runway. But at 500 feet agl there was a VERY strong prevailing wind (which carried me down KPTD to 39N due south at a ground speed ~235-240kts the whole way). With a stable approach - breaking into the calmer layer made for a strong brief destabilization coming through 500ft and a less than squeeker landing, but nothing out of whack. By 8am winds were as promised gusting to 25kts 90 degrees to the runway, and I was very glad we had gotten up very early to fly!

And it was nice to have breakfast with Tony!

Erik -- I did my primary at the Princeton 141 school. Runway 28 was always a bit tricky during hot summer or windy days. If it wasn't the winds swirling near the quarry, it was the thermal or winds coming off of the buildings across the street from the threshold.

Did you have breakfast with our very own Anthony? Or was this some other "Tony"?

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[aviatoreb]

Erik -- I did my primary at the Princeton 141 school. Runway 28 was always a bit tricky during hot summer or windy days. If it wasn't the winds swirling near the quarry, it was the thermal or winds coming off of the buildings across the street from the threshold.

Did you have breakfast with our very own Anthony? Or was this some other "Tony"?

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Our VERY own Anthony.  :-)  Then he dropped me at Princeton U where I had several different kinds of business yesterday.

 

It was my first time into 39N.  Its a nice airport, and seems like a vibrant activity there, flight school, helicopter ops and service center there.  Very nice.

[Bob_Belville]

I don't read Dan's OP to say the nose pitched up (relative to the horizon). The ASI, the stall horn, and the AOA indicated a sudden loss of (relative) airspeed so, being a very experienced pilot, he pushed the nose down, combating the attitude trim. Sure sounds like the headwind on the surface switched directions on him as he climbed a little. Wind shear.   

[Alan Fox]

How about a wake from one of the C130s that are based there ???

[Marauder]

How about a wake from one of the C130s that are based there ???

I got caught on one of those coming off of runway 27. Quite an experience. I think the winds were more southerly when Dan flew so I would have expected any wake effect to be north of his runway.

It could also have been a departing jet.

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[aviatoreb]

I got caught on one of those coming off of runway 27. Quite an experience. I think the winds were more southerly when Dan flew so I would have expected any wake effect to be north of his runway.

It could also have been a departing jet.

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Plus on a high wind/gusty day, you expect wake turbulence to break up more quickly don't you? 

[mike_elliott]

I don't read Dan's OP to say the nose pitched up (relative to the horizon). The ASI, the stall horn, and the AOA indicated a sudden loss of (relative) airspeed so, being a very experienced pilot, he pushed the nose down, combating the attitude trim. Sure sounds like the headwind on the surface switched directions on him as he climbed a little. Wind shear.   

 

 

I did,

 

upon climb out at about 200 Msl and just cleaned up the Bravo I had a violent pitch up aoa and stall horn started was screaming

[PTK]

Well learned why we practice departure stalls, at the last mapa school I practiced these with Jerry J (btw thanx J). I departed Kilg for Kdet yesterday no big deal wind about 12/g19 from 330 on rw 32...upon climb out at about 200 Msl and just cleaned up the Bravo I had a violent pitch up aoa and stall horn started was screaming doing 100 indicated and used all my might to push yoke over and re trim plane to pick up airspeed which rapidly went from 100 to 60-65 knots..first what happened, I luckily got under control( I have over 3000 hrs Mooney time). I'm going over and over the situation to ascertain did I screw up or what occurred Wind shear?? Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated, had rather strong off and on turbulence up to about 700o ft...I'm clueless I think.

 

Sounds like wind sheer.

 

EXCELLENT job recognizing the airspeed trend and staying in control by pitching down. Pitch is all we have for airspeed control at WOT on takeoff.

 

Not sure what the speeds for the Bravo are but I'd imagine Vy is over 100 knots. Sounds like you were aiming for Vy but due to windshear couldn't quite get there or even maintain Vx for that matter!

[Bob_Belville]

I did,

 

upon climb out at about 200 Msl and just cleaned up the Bravo I had a violent pitch up aoa and stall horn started was screaming

You're probably right Mike. It's a matter of (lack of) punctuation. With no comma after "up" I took the pitch up to be descriptive of what the aoa flashed. 

[mike_elliott]

You're probably right Mike. It's a matter of (lack of) punctuation. With no comma after "up" I took the pitch up to be descriptive of what the aoa flashed. 

or you could be right, which would be a real bad thing if the AOA was indicating you needed to pitch up in wind shear 

[FlyDave]

Dan,

 

Did you report this to the tower or ATC?

Was there an Airmet for Low Level Wind Shear (LLWS)?

 

Dave

[atn_pilot]

Excellent point. Always report shear, and always begin the call by saying PIREP to make it official. Wind shear is nothing to be taken lightly.

[Bob_Belville]

or you could be right, which would be a real bad thing if the AOA was indicating you needed to pitch up in wind shear 

Here's hoping Dan chimes in again and clarifies. We're trying to read between the lines. I was interpreting him to be saying the aoa lurched to the red end which would normally by indicating the nose was up and needed to be pushed down.

 

But we're kinda guessing. I'm assuming the headwind collapsed which due to inertia would have caused what he saw on the ASI, AOA, Stall horn. 

[carusoam]

Starting with...thank you Dan, for sharing your experience...and safe outcome.

The winds around NJ for the past few days have included some strong winds above 1,000' making for some interesting shear activity closer to the ground. Some days, the odd spring activity is more visible with clouds overhead rushing by while the air around you is somewhat calm in comparison.

The night before, Erik and I were discussing (MS-PM and TXT) his strategy to avoid a forecasted strong and bumpy crosswind landing at 39N. The expected gust factors were large. Plan B was to use KTTN with more choices....

Not that Erik needs/wants my weather wisdom... I had the opportunity to be the Bollt family ground bound driver for the morning. Great company over coffee...

[Danb]

Yes I can having trouble with the internet here in Canada..I was departing as normal was cleaning up the plane at 100 knots...little turbulent, then had an abrupt pitch up attitude alone with associated drop in airspeed, I immediately moved the nose over and trimmed down in an order to minimize necessary force to put the plane in a pitch down attitude, when back under control and around 90 knots leveled off to 120 and continued to climb to assigned attitude reasonably turbulent until above the cloud layer. I had about 75 lbs in luggage area and about 200 under gross, I plan on putting one of the suitcases in the back seat on the way home, my weight and balance was within limits, assume just some strong gusts ..was not on auto pilot until at altitude..one less thing to worry about...thanx for the comments...