Continental Motors Webinars - LOP Operations

[Mike A]

Has anyone seen this:

 

 

The May 27th and June 3rd classes spark my interest. 

[NotarPilot]

Are these webinars free?

[Mike A]

Yes.  You have to sign up through the Social Flight website, but it is free.  There are acutally a bunch of videos already on there, including some from TCM about engine operation that is in direct opposition to what is taught at APS.

[kmyfm20s]

Do you know if they will archive these webinars if you are unable to see them on those dates? I hope so.

[231LV]

Yes.  You have to sign up through the Social Flight website, but it is free.  There are acutally a bunch of videos already on there, including some from TCM about engine operation that is in direct opposition to what is taught at APS.

Given the choice between listening to marketing hype and the science behind APS....easy decision

[PMcClure]

Given the choice between listening to marketing hype and the science behind APS....easy decision

 

 

Could you give some specific examples where TCM is giving marketing hype over science in modern operating manuals?

[Mike A]

Do you know if they will archive these webinars if you are unable to see them on those dates? I hope so.

 

I would assume so.  They posted webinars from Oct 2014.

 

 

One thing that I found interesting was that the TCM person in the other videos stated that below the Max. Continuous Power no mixture setting is capable of causing detonation and the red box does not exist.

[kmyfm20s]

I was able to watch both of the TCM webinars. I found it interesting that he said that the cylinder heads where engineered with the decreasing strength of aluminum as a result of heat in mind. He said heat is not as big of deal as people make it out to be as long as its not from Detonation or pre-ignition. I also thought it was interesting about the calibration of the fuel system being the number 1 most important maintenance issue. As far as cruise he did mention that max continuous is 65% unless the POH or STC says otherwise and that at or below that the red box does not exist. I thought it was very worthwhile and had a lot more in common with the other engine managment guru's than not,

[Shadrach]

I heard nothing in opposition to APS.  In fact, some of the graphs looked like the were taken from Braly publications.  I confess, that I've not taken the APS course, but I've read most of what Deakin and Braly have written.   It is straight forward stuff that is easily demonstrated and repeated in any injected GA engine with reasonably close cylinder to cylinder F/A ratios.

[Jeff_S]

+1 to what Ross said.  If they define Max Continuous Power as 65%, then that is entirely consistent with the APS guidelines.  But when I first saw the other poster say Max Continuous Power that implied something different to me, e.g. WOT and RPM redline. If you are down low in those conditions, you are definitely greater than 65% power and the red box does exist.

[Shadrach]

You're absolutely right Jeff.  However, after many hours of running WOT RAO LOP at 2000ftmsl, I can tell you that it runs so cool that I think it would be difficult to induce anything close detonation even if you tried...at least in my application.The cylinders just don't get hot enough, even in the heat of summer, I can hold the hottest (#3) to <350 @ 30LOP with the cowl flaps closed.  

[jetdriven]

It will also run at 150 ROP at sea level, full throttle, 2700 RPM, that's leaned to about 15.5 GPH. The CHT there is ~360.

[Shadrach]

I'm sure you're right Byron but given my LOP "on the deck" IAS is about 155KTS I can't imagine it's worth the gas.

[Mike A]

I heard nothing in opposition to APS.  In fact, some of the graphs looked like the were taken from Braly publications.  I confess, that I've not taken the APS course, but I've read most of what Deakin and Braly have written.   It is straight forward stuff that is easily demonstrated and repeated in any injected GA engine with reasonably close cylinder to cylinder F/A ratios.

 

You are right.  The science and premise behind it are the same.  It was in opposition in my brain.  The Max Cont. Power for a TSIO-360 is 160 hp, or 76.2%.  Because all the LOP discussion use 65% for their low red box limit, I was applying the same red box principles to my operations and robbing my plane of the opportunity to perform since I was trying to get way too far ROP or LOP to avoid planting myself in the middle of a red box that really does not exist.

[Mike A]

You are right.  The science and premise behind it are the same.  It was in opposition in my brain.  The Max Cont. Power for a TSIO-360 is 160 hp, or 76.2%.  Because all the LOP discussion use 65% for their low red box limit, I was applying the same red box principles to my operations and robbing my plane of the opportunity to perform since I was trying to get way too far ROP or LOP to avoid planting myself in the middle of a red box that really does not exist.

 

Actually, change that.  The Maximum Continuous Operation Limit is 210 hp (100%).  The recommended max is 160 hp.  Does that mean that the red box does not exist at all for my engine under normal operating conditions?

[Shadrach]

While there are those on the board that feel that there is no red box for some oh these engines, I would disagree.  Perhaps the normally aspirated Lyc IO360 has broad detonation margins and is robust enough to be run there all of the time without major issue...as long as everything goes well.  I would not run my airplane that way, but I don't judge those who do.

 

With a turbo, you're limited by how much air you can put through the thing. I do not believe the BSFC curve is the same for turbo supercharged engines.  You have to figure out what you're comfortable with. With summer around the corner, experiment with power settings on warm/hot days if you can keep it cool (under 360) in level flight with the CF closed and the OAT is 75fd at 4500ft, thats probably a pretty kind powersetting.  

 

I started off very conservatively and gradually became more and more comfortable with how to manage my engine and how to produce the desired result. No I am very comfortable at high power LOP settings.  When I'm westbound, I often run at altitudes where you would expect to see a J3 or a Stearman, just twice as fast or better; I do so WOTRAO 20 to 40LOP.  In the winter, it's tough to keep the engine hot as opposed to cool; I often find myself in odd predicament of struggling to keep #1 and #4 above 280 .

[Shadrach]

Could you give some specific examples where TCM is giving marketing hype over science in modern operating manuals?

 

He kind of over hypes the "big pull".  Also, he touches on the idea of running high power LOP as more risky.  It's actually the least risky and the kindest way to get your engine to perform.

[chrisk]

I try to keep my hottest cylinder under 400.   With any reasonable power setting, during the summer, at altitude, and the cowl flaps closed, I don't think 360 is possible on my plane.  FL190 @ 25F

[Shadrach]

What power setting do you usually use at FL190?

[aviatoreb]

While there are those on the board that feel that there is no red box for some oh these engines, I would disagree.  Perhaps the normally aspirated Lyc IO360 has broad detonation margins and is robust enough to be run there all of the time without major issue...as long as everything goes well.  I would not run my airplane that way, but I don't judge those who do.

 

With a turbo, you're limited by how much air you can put through the thing. I do not believe the BSFC curve is the same for turbo supercharged engines.  You have to figure out what you're comfortable with. With summer around the corner, experiment with power settings on warm/hot days if you can keep it cool (under 360) in level flight with the CF closed and the OAT is 75fd at 4500ft, thats probably a pretty kind powersetting.  

 

I started off very conservatively and gradually became more and more comfortable with how to manage my engine and how to produce the desired result. No I am very comfortable at high power LOP settings.  When I'm westbound, I often run at altitudes where you would expect to see a J3 or a Stearman, just twice as fast or better; I do so WOTRAO 20 to 40LOP.  In the winter, it's tough to keep the engine hot as opposed to cool; I often find myself in odd predicament of struggling to keep #1 and #4 above 280 .

 

What is ROA?  I know what is WOT.

[chrisk]

What power setting do you usually use at FL190?

I took two pictures from a flight earlier this week.  31 inches, 2400 RPM, around 12 gph, cowl flaps closed.   The OAT was 7 degrees F.    One picture shows the coldest CHT at 288, the other shows a 60 degree difference. So, for this trip, the max CHT was around 350F.  --But I don't see this on a summer day. 

[Shadrach]

I took two pictures from a flight earlier this week.  31 inches, 2400 RPM, around 12 gph, cowl flaps closed.   The OAT was 7 degrees F.IMAG0657.jpgIMAG0661.jpg    One picture shows the coldest CHT at 288, the other shows a 60 degree difference. So, for this trip, the max CHT was around 350F.  --But I don't see this on a summer day.

Why 2400? It probably produces higher CHTs than 2500.

[chrisk]

Why 2400? It probably produces higher CHTs than 2500.

No real reason.  It was just a little quieter there.  And the plane is a little more fuel efficient as the engine runs at lower RPMs

[DaV8or]

What is ROA?  I know what is WOT.

He uses RAO and it stands for Ram Air Open.

[jetdriven]

No real reason. It was just a little quieter there. And the plane is a little more fuel efficient as the engine runs at lower RPMs

It's not necessarily more efficient. TAS /FF is efficiency, but the higher the TAS the less of that 30$/hr airframe time You are using up. I did some data collection and a 201 at 8500' and 2700 RPM is 10-11 knots faster than 2200 RPM, and 3 knots faster than 2500 RPM on the same fuel flow.

The extra speed not only nets better NMPG, but is also faster and cheaper per trip.