ShermAv8tor Posted November 30, 2015 Report Posted November 30, 2015 On 11/7/2014 8:01:02, ryoder said: Mine rocks the wings back and forth if I test it by deflecting to one side and try to let it stabilize the airplane. Maybe the is something wrong. Call Brittain, and talk to tech support, its free and they are knowledgeable. I talk to them every time I come across something on mine, easy system to work on Quote
ShermAv8tor Posted November 30, 2015 Report Posted November 30, 2015 On 11/7/2014 6:58:39, Hector said: My C has good PC system and as everyone has said, it works well and it is helpful both during IMC and VFR. The previous owners installed a switch in the panel to turn the PC system on/off and I like this much better than having it be on all the time. My plane is well rigged and the ball is centered during level flight with feet off the pedals. The PC system will stay on heading for a while but will drift off eventually. Once you dial in just the right amount of aileron trim, however, it does a pretty good job and it only takes a nudge once in a while to maintain heading. In IMC its golden. I can look up something, copy a clearance, etc., and by the time I put my hands back on the yoke I might be a degree or two off my heading. I'm glad I have it and it has been extremely reliable. It is one system that I would absolutely fix immediately if it started to go wrong Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD If the plane came from Mooney with the PC system installed the plane was FAA type certificated with this system as a "CONSTANT copilot, and deactivating it or installing a switch to turn it off and on when you want is considered deviating from the original type certificate. Only can an STC be completed to remove the system, or install a switch. Maybe you have an STC for the switch? I doubt your records and aircraft would ever be audited, but as aircraft owners we are responsible by abiding by the FAR's. My 65C has the PC system plus the B6 Auto Pilot with altitude hold which was installed by the factory and it is awesome, I will be connecting it to my Garmin 430 install (happening now) which will only provide it heading information but at least it will then hold a heading as well as altitude. Quote
Guest Posted November 30, 2015 Report Posted November 30, 2015 The system is vacuum powered, you'll need a vacuum gauge a system schematic from a manual and some sealing plugs and caps. Break the system down into sections then connect the vacuum gauge to the end of the open line. Pull on the chain on the servo at the end of the system, hold pressure on it while an assistant watches the vacuum gauge. Fix leaks as you go, then assemble the next part of the system, relocate the vacuum gauge and test again. Keep going part by part until all leaks are repaired, then flight test again. Remember the system can only overcome so much airframe out of rig/ mis rigging. Clarence Quote
ryoder Posted November 30, 2015 Report Posted November 30, 2015 Thanks for the info everyone. I need to think about my options. I am a decent parts changer but don't normally have the time or patience to perform exhaustive diagnostics. I also don't have caps, plugs, and vacuum test tools so I'd have to get those. I do have electrical tape and an Amex card. Quote
Hank Posted November 30, 2015 Report Posted November 30, 2015 A quick check to see if its working is while taxiing--when you turn, the yoke should turn one way, the Turn Coordinator the other way. Right now, I forget which one goes the way you turn, but the key is different directions. When my wing servo boot blew a hole, they went together while taxiing. When you rewrap the boot, there's a big oring holding the boot on like a rubber band, then the boot folds down over it. Scotch 33 electrical tape goes around and seals the open end. That's what Brittain told me, but I don't recall the number of the oring, it's a very thin one. Quote
Shadrach Posted November 30, 2015 Report Posted November 30, 2015 49 minutes ago, ShermAv8tor said: If the plane came from Mooney with the PC system installed the plane was FAA type certificated with this system as a "CONSTANT copilot, and deactivating it or installing a switch to turn it off and on when you want is considered deviating from the original type certificate. Only can an STC be completed to remove the system, or install a switch. Maybe you have an STC for the switch? I doubt your records and aircraft would ever be audited, but as aircraft owners we are responsible by abiding by the FAR's. My 65C has the PC system plus the B6 Auto Pilot with altitude hold which was installed by the factory and it is awesome, I will be connecting it to my Garmin 430 install (happening now) which will only provide it heading information but at least it will then hold a heading as well as altitude. The system comes stock with a defeat switch actuated by the pilots left thumb. It is essentially a vacuum dump; the pilot can push the switch or remove the button. It was certificated that way. Quote
Hector Posted November 30, 2015 Report Posted November 30, 2015 On 11/7/2014 6:58:39, Hector said: My C has good PC system and as everyone has said, it works well and it is helpful both during IMC and VFR. The previous owners installed a switch in the panel to turn the PC system on/off and I like this much better than having it be on all the time. My plane is well rigged and the ball is centered during level flight with feet off the pedals. The PC system will stay on heading for a while but will drift off eventually. Once you dial in just the right amount of aileron trim, however, it does a pretty good job and it only takes a nudge once in a while to maintain heading. In IMC its golden. I can look up something, copy a clearance, etc., and by the time I put my hands back on the yoke I might be a degree or two off my heading. I'm glad I have it and it has been extremely reliable. It is one system that I would absolutely fix immediately if it started to go wrong Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD If the plane came from Mooney with the PC system installed the plane was FAA type certificated with this system as a "CONSTANT copilot, and deactivating it or installing a switch to turn it off and on when you want is considered deviating from the original type certificate. Only can an STC be completed to remove the system, or install a switch. Maybe you have an STC for the switch? I doubt your records and aircraft would ever be audited, but as aircraft owners we are responsible by abiding by the FAR's. My 65C has the PC system plus the B6 Auto Pilot with altitude hold which was installed by the factory and it is awesome, I will be connecting it to my Garmin 430 install (happening now) which will only provide it heading information but at least it will then hold a heading as well as altitude. The switch on the panel serves the same function as the switch on the yoke, it deactivates the system. My plane had it when I purchased it and I'm glad is there. I believe this is/was a very common mod. 1 Quote
Yetti Posted November 30, 2015 Report Posted November 30, 2015 2 hours ago, ShermAv8tor said: If the plane came from Mooney with the PC system installed the plane was FAA type certificated with this system as a "CONSTANT copilot, and deactivating it or installing a switch to turn it off and on when you want is considered deviating from the original type certificate. Only can an STC be completed to remove the system, or install a switch. Maybe you have an STC for the switch? I doubt your records and aircraft would ever be audited, but as aircraft owners we are responsible by abiding by the FAR's. My 65C has the PC system plus the B6 Auto Pilot with altitude hold which was installed by the factory and it is awesome, I will be connecting it to my Garmin 430 install (happening now) which will only provide it heading information but at least it will then hold a heading as well as altitude. Brittain will send you a drawing to complete the switch on the panel defeat the system 1 Quote
MyNameIsNobody Posted November 30, 2015 Report Posted November 30, 2015 On November 7, 2014 at 8:25:49 PM, Hank said: PC works fairly well by itself. Add the Brittain heading bug and it becomes downright wonderful! I went to Yellowstone and back using mine, hardly touched the yoke except when I wanted to. Also flew to south FL and back with a leaking servo, took constant right yoke to fly in a straight line. Pulled left servo, retaped it; pulled right servo, had a huge hole in the boot, sent to Brittain for a fast, inexpensive repair. It now works like it did before. Never can remember which Brittain system is which--I have AccuTrak and AccuFlight both. I suspect Trak follows the heading bug, and Flight is slaved to the G430W. 50% chance...and EVERY time you guess wrong...:) Don't play roulette. Accu-Flite Heading Bug. AccuTrak-GPS Quote
ShermAv8tor Posted November 30, 2015 Report Posted November 30, 2015 2 hours ago, ShermAv8tor said: If the plane came from Mooney with the PC system installed the plane was FAA type certificated with this system as a "CONSTANT copilot, and deactivating it or installing a switch to turn it off and on when you want is considered deviating from the original type certificate. Only can an STC be completed to remove the system, or install a switch. Maybe you have an STC for the switch? I doubt your records and aircraft would ever be audited, but as aircraft owners we are responsible by abiding by the FAR's. My 65C has the PC system plus the B6 Auto Pilot with altitude hold which was installed by the factory and it is awesome, I will be connecting it to my Garmin 430 install (happening now) which will only provide it heading information but at least it will then hold a heading as well as altitude. Brittain will send you a drawing to complete the switch on the panel defeat the system Yep I heard the same thing, and I asked Brittain directly…here is my question to them… "Also I would like to know is there a shut off valve which can be Teed inline with the PC cutoff switch on the yoke? I would like to be able to just say pull a knob that deactivates the system altogether while taxiing, takeoff, and landing phases, so I do not have to hold my thumb on the button continuously." And here is their reply… "The PC system is STC’d as a constant co-pilot. Therefore there is no legal manner in which to mount a master on/off valve." Soooooo…If anyone has a copy of this drawing I keep hearing about, please share. I would do the same… Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote
ShermAv8tor Posted November 30, 2015 Report Posted November 30, 2015 49 minutes ago, ShermAv8tor said: If the plane came from Mooney with the PC system installed the plane was FAA type certificated with this system as a "CONSTANT copilot, and deactivating it or installing a switch to turn it off and on when you want is considered deviating from the original type certificate. Only can an STC be completed to remove the system, or install a switch. Maybe you have an STC for the switch? I doubt your records and aircraft would ever be audited, but as aircraft owners we are responsible by abiding by the FAR's. My 65C has the PC system plus the B6 Auto Pilot with altitude hold which was installed by the factory and it is awesome, I will be connecting it to my Garmin 430 install (happening now) which will only provide it heading information but at least it will then hold a heading as well as altitude. The system comes stock with a defeat switch actuated by the pilots left thumb. It is essentially a vacuum dump; the pilot can push the switch or remove the button. It was certificated that way. Yes I know about the button…Can you direct me to the document or verbiage either in the POH, or the PC operational manual supplement that states removing the button is an acceptable method to deactivate the system. When my FAA PMI & I discussed this, he asked for the info in writing, however I could not find it…if you have this info can you please share. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote
Marauder Posted November 30, 2015 Report Posted November 30, 2015 49 minutes ago, ShermAv8tor said: If the plane came from Mooney with the PC system installed the plane was FAA type certificated with this system as a "CONSTANT copilot, and deactivating it or installing a switch to turn it off and on when you want is considered deviating from the original type certificate. Only can an STC be completed to remove the system, or install a switch. Maybe you have an STC for the switch? I doubt your records and aircraft would ever be audited, but as aircraft owners we are responsible by abiding by the FAR's. My 65C has the PC system plus the B6 Auto Pilot with altitude hold which was installed by the factory and it is awesome, I will be connecting it to my Garmin 430 install (happening now) which will only provide it heading information but at least it will then hold a heading as well as altitude. The system comes stock with a defeat switch actuated by the pilots left thumb. It is essentially a vacuum dump; the pilot can push the switch or remove the button. It was certificated that way. Yes I know about the button…Can you direct me to the document or verbiage either in the POH, or the PC operational manual supplement that states removing the button is an acceptable method to deactivate the system. When my FAA PMI & I discussed this, he asked for the info in writing, however I could not find it…if you have this info can you please share. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk As opposed to the rubber band most of us used? My PC system was operative when I was doing my instrument rating. It was great for straight and level enroute but a pain when you were trying to learn hand flying an approach. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote
Shadrach Posted November 30, 2015 Report Posted November 30, 2015 11 hours ago, ShermAv8tor said: Yes I know about the button…Can you direct me to the document or verbiage either in the POH, or the PC operational manual supplement that states removing the button is an acceptable method to deactivate the system. When my FAA PMI & I discussed this, he asked for the info in writing, however I could not find it…if you have this info can you please share. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk If your PMI is claiming that a Brittain factory toggle defeat switch is not legal, but the Brittain factory thumb defeat switch is, then I feel sorry that you are having to deal with such an over the top, small minded, fool. Any...and I mean any auto-pilot or wing leveler or "CONSTANT" copilot as you put it, can fail...in IMC...then your "CONSTANT" copilot becomes a mischievous little gremlin "CONSTANTLY" fighting to roll the aircraft and turn you off course. A failed wing leveler or autopilot that cannot be turned off would increase work load at any time, but especially in IMC. Having to hold a button down to keep it from having to fight "CONSTANT" roll forces is workable but not ideal. If I were you, I would ask that PMI to give you written document explaining that he refuses to approve the installation of a factory switch that temporarily disables a device that can take uncommanded control of the aircraft when it malfunctions, particularly when said device already has a switch, albeit one that must be held with one's thumb. If I could not pull the button, I would install a defeat switch for sure. I once had a hose behind the panel get knocked loose on the pilot's side during maintenance. Stupid me, I did not notice the malfunction on the ground. On take off (VMC fortunately) the plane began an uncommanded bank to the left. I remember thinking "well this would be a blast to deal with on a long IFR XC" Is your PMI a pilot? Most are not. Some barely have any actual maintenace experience. Talk about short sighted. The "constant copilot" is marketing speak. Please show me the doc you're referring to that states the PC must be on at all times; I do not believe it's listed in any of the M20 TCDS's. 2 Quote
ShermAv8tor Posted November 30, 2015 Report Posted November 30, 2015 Shad, ok last post since we are taking over the OP's original topic…all very good points you have raised. I was just trying to get the defeat switch and do it legally, but seems I cannot. I talked to Brittain and they flat out said no drawing for that 2nd defeat switch and it would not be legal to do so? Maybe the FAA cracked down on them during an audit? IDK? I believe the FAA thinks it is supposed to be on all the time & if an issue arises then you are supposed to push the button until landing…every FSDO is different, but he did say get the drawing from Brittain and no worries, but like I said that was a dead end. I tried to pull the button out of mine with no luck, I don't want to force it and risk damage, maybe there's a trick? Otherwise rubber band it is…Thanks for all the insight and feedback. Private, A&P 65C Byron, CA C83 Quote
N601RX Posted November 30, 2015 Report Posted November 30, 2015 13 hours ago, ShermAv8tor said: If the plane came from Mooney with the PC system installed the plane was FAA type certificated with this system as a "CONSTANT copilot, and deactivating it or installing a switch to turn it off and on when you want is considered deviating from the original type certificate. Only can an STC be completed to remove the system, or install a switch. Maybe you have an STC for the switch? I doubt your records and aircraft would ever be audited, but as aircraft owners we are responsible by abiding by the FAR's. My 65C has the PC system plus the B6 Auto Pilot with altitude hold which was installed by the factory and it is awesome, I will be connecting it to my Garmin 430 install (happening now) which will only provide it heading information but at least it will then hold a heading as well as altitude. Just because something is installed at the factory does not mean they were included in the type certificate. I believe these were installed at the Mooney factory under an STC owned by Brittain and are not part of the Mooney type certificate. Quote
Marauder Posted November 30, 2015 Report Posted November 30, 2015 Shad, ok last post since we are taking over the OP's original topic…all very good points you have raised. I was just trying to get the defeat switch and do it legally, but seems I cannot. I talked to Brittain and they flat out said no drawing for that 2nd defeat switch and it would not be legal to do so? Maybe the FAA cracked down on them during an audit? IDK? I believe the FAA thinks it is supposed to be on all the time & if an issue arises then you are supposed to push the button until landing…every FSDO is different, but he did say get the drawing from Brittain and no worries, but like I said that was a dead end. I tried to pull the button out of mine with no luck, I don't want to force it and risk damage, maybe there's a trick? Otherwise rubber band it is…Thanks for all the insight and feedback. Private, A&P 65C Byron, CA C83 I have found the FSDO inconsistency frustrating. I had a sign off on a sub panel in my Mooney, only to have it told to be illegal by another. Although the PC system being on all the time has a benefit, it can be (and probably the reason you are asking for a way to shut it off) a pain when you don't want it on. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 1 Quote
Shadrach Posted November 30, 2015 Report Posted November 30, 2015 1 hour ago, ShermAv8tor said: Shad, ok last post since we are taking over the OP's original topic…all very good points you have raised. I was just trying to get the defeat switch and do it legally, but seems I cannot. I talked to Brittain and they flat out said no drawing for that 2nd defeat switch and it would not be legal to do so? Maybe the FAA cracked down on them during an audit? IDK? I believe the FAA thinks it is supposed to be on all the time & if an issue arises then you are supposed to push the button until landing…every FSDO is different, but he did say get the drawing from Brittain and no worries, but like I said that was a dead end. I tried to pull the button out of mine with no luck, I don't want to force it and risk damage, maybe there's a trick? Otherwise rubber band it is…Thanks for all the insight and feedback. Private, A&P 65C Byron, CA C83 Yetti posted this diagram a few months back. It is Mooney Specific, but so faded, I can't see who the author was, I can see they were in Tulsa. Perhaps Yetti can help you get more info. Quote
yvesg Posted November 30, 2015 Report Posted November 30, 2015 Look at the attached picture. This is how my PC can be turned off, without rubber band or 35mm plastic can. It has been installed over 20 years ago I would say without any trouble. With sliding the thumb you can turn it on or off at will without even looking. Yves 1 Quote
Shadrach Posted November 30, 2015 Report Posted November 30, 2015 Just now, yvesg said: Look at the attached picture. This is how my PC can be turned off, without rubber band or 35mm plastic can. It has been installed over 20 years ago I would say without any trouble. With sliding the thumb you can turn it on or off at will without even looking. Yves I'm pretty sure the PMI mentioned above wouldn't like that either. It's permanently mounted and definately not in the TCDS. Do you have an STC? Perhaps a Field Approval that we can all copy and submit should we choose to go that route? I'll trade you for a copy of the field approval on my Xevision HID headlight...oh wait, they're not approving those anymore, appearently they were only safe to install on a certain number of Mooneys and are now unsafe for new installations but still safe on previous installations. So previous installations are fine, but don't waist your time trying to get a new one. It's a good thing we have such a well intentioned and organized administrative department delivering, clear, concise and consistent advisories and enforcement on these matters. 1 Quote
slowflyin Posted November 30, 2015 Report Posted November 30, 2015 I just pull the button up about half way when in the pattern. Dumps the vacuum and I don't risk losing the button. 1 Quote
MyNameIsNobody Posted November 30, 2015 Report Posted November 30, 2015 4 hours ago, ShermAv8tor said: Shad, ok last post since we are taking over the OP's original topic…all very good points you have raised. I was just trying to get the defeat switch and do it legally, but seems I cannot. I talked to Brittain and they flat out said no drawing for that 2nd defeat switch and it would not be legal to do so? Maybe the FAA cracked down on them during an audit? IDK? I believe the FAA thinks it is supposed to be on all the time & if an issue arises then you are supposed to push the button until landing…every FSDO is different, but he did say get the drawing from Brittain and no worries, but like I said that was a dead end. I tried to pull the button out of mine with no luck, I don't want to force it and risk damage, maybe there's a trick? Otherwise rubber band it is…Thanks for all the insight and feedback. Private, A&P 65C Byron, CA C83 There IS an approved STC for a defeat switch. It requires updated yoke install and electric solonoid (available from Brittain). The switch is on the front lett yoke handle of the pilot yoke. You flip the switch and it electrically closes the solonoid and defeats the PC. Works awesome. It cost about $.1AMU's. CHEAP and works great. Legal, handy and eliminates holding the button, removing the button, installing a camera film holder, illegally drilling the yoke and installing an unapproved "holder" or illegally installing a dump valve... Quote
Shadrach Posted November 30, 2015 Report Posted November 30, 2015 1 hour ago, MyNameIsNobody said: There IS an approved STC for a defeat switch. It requires updated yoke install and electric solonoid (available from Brittain). The switch is on the front lett yoke handle of the pilot yoke. You flip the switch and it electrically closes the solonoid and defeats the PC. Works awesome. It cost about $.1AMU's. CHEAP and works great. Legal, handy and eliminates holding the button, removing the button, installing a camera film holder, illegally drilling the yoke and installing an unapproved "holder" or illegally installing a dump valve... I am 99% sure that used to be Brittain's position, which is why there are drawings floating around on the Internet. I am guessing Brittain now has a new position on the matter given Sherms experience; he is the most recent candidate to attempt to acquire drawings for the install. If the factory is telling him no, than I understand his PMI's issue. That being said, this is not a major alteration and should be an easy field approval for a PMI. Quote
N601RX Posted November 30, 2015 Report Posted November 30, 2015 Mooney has a drawing that allows swapping out the vac button/valve with the electric switch and electrical solenoid. I don't remember if it shows a push switch or flip switch, I can look when I get home. As Scott mentioned the drawing is included on the main drawing for the yoke retrofit kit. 1 Quote
MyNameIsNobody Posted November 30, 2015 Report Posted November 30, 2015 7 hours ago, ShermAv8tor said: Shad, ok last post since we are taking over the OP's original topic…all very good points you have raised. I was just trying to get the defeat switch and do it legally, but seems I cannot. I talked to Brittain and they flat out said no drawing for that 2nd defeat switch and it would not be legal to do so? Maybe the FAA cracked down on them during an audit? IDK? I believe the FAA thinks it is supposed to be on all the time & if an issue arises then you are supposed to push the button until landing…every FSDO is different, but he did say get the drawing from Brittain and no worries, but like I said that was a dead end. I tried to pull the button out of mine with no luck, I don't want to force it and risk damage, maybe there's a trick? Otherwise rubber band it is…Thanks for all the insight and feedback. Private, A&P 65C Byron, CA C83 How many replies does one need regarding "How well the P.C. works" and whether the Wing Leveler holds a course? Good grief. The question in and of itself is basic beyond belief. Yes, If it is serviced and functioning it holds wings level. NO, of course it doesn't hold a heading. There is stuff like wind that will always be pushing you off course regardless of whether your wings are level. It needs the pilot or the introduction of a heading bug GPS track to "follow a heading/hold a course". The end. Now, back to the solonoid/upgrade to the traditional wing-leveler push button disconnect. The whole PC can be defeated with NOT a heavy amount of force, unless the plane is out of trim...There is no necessity to defeat the PC as the forces can be overcome. I still don't understand how the PC can roll if the button is pushed or pulled/defeated. If air is being dumped it CAN NOT WORK, RIGHT?...Right. Quote
Hank Posted December 1, 2015 Report Posted December 1, 2015 Nobody, if the system leaks on one side, the plane will not maintain wings level. A continuous slight bank means a continuous slight turn. It is very easy to overpower, such that I almost never use the thumb button, unless maybe I'm practicing turns around a point or something. Quote
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