Engine catastrophe in flight today

[82Mike]

My 82 Mooney m20j flying at 11,000 feet over the smokies returning from Ohio to Florida begain loosing oil pressure in full blown IFR with minimums down to 500 feet. At altitude it started a slow progression in inching down OP from the sold 60 plus psi at take off to 32 psi when diversion to an off route airport was required. Upon checking at landing at Dublin Georgia the mooney required 4 quarts of oil! The A&P at the field pulled the plug from number 4 to show it was soaked in oil (and this was the top plug - what does the bottom look like?). Obviously it ran very rough when we restarted it. Now for the fun part. The engine was rebuilt by what I assume is a very reputable shop in June of 2009 and only has 415 hours on the rebuild. It has gone through all annuals with flying colors. So my tough question is what do I do with this shop? The so called reputable shop says it is out of warranty by 3 months! The are sort of saying they will help me but are being very evasive as far as their liability in this. 400 hours rebuild by a widely known shop that their work could have ended In The dearth of myself, my wife, and her father is going to take some serious consideration on the part of the shop in order for mea to stay anywhere near quiet on this. 400 hour rebuilds should not be blowing up cylinders after such a short period of time. We were lucky to get it before it seized and god knows what other damage was done to the other cylinders from this one taking a Sh!T. Love some suggestions, go to a lawyer? Try to expose this shop so others know the way they stand behind their work? I am in a real delima and in reality the work performed by this shop could have killed my family! How do I ever know that replacing the one bad cylinder will even fix the problem? Art the other cylinders subject to the metal shoot off from the bad cylindar. I hope this company comes through as it is Likely to get very ugly and I have that.

Mike

[Jim Peace]

Mike,

First off I have to say great job in noticing the problem and keeping cool and making a great decision and landing quickly and staying alive to be able to share your experience and only have money and litigation issues to complain about. Certainly many other pilots may have had a much worse story to tell, self included. Pat yourself on the back.

I would love to know the name of the shop. Not sure if mentioning it here is really all that much of a liability. Where was your engine rebuild/overhaul done?, seems like an innocent question.

Also we all have personal weather minimums. In my day job I have no problem going into cat3 zero visibly conditions. But a single engine whether a Cessna 150 or an F16 can come apart at anytime for any reason (as you have seen) and it would be in your best interest to have at least a 1000 foot ceiling to break out of. Even that would only give you a few miles to find a clearing with a slight turn or two. Night or low IMC in a single just ain't right. Few options if any. Most of the time none.

Great job.

[N201MKTurbo]

I had a piston break once that used oil like that. The land between the oil and second ring broke off half way around the piston.

Relativly cheap repair, all things considered.

[ArtVandelay]

I would first get some more facts, like having the engine borescoped to figure out the damage and possibly the cause. Obviously the filter will need to be cut, and any metal identified. What other work was done on the engine? The prop may need to be inspected and You should download your engine monitor data as well and check it out.

[Guest]

Without removing the cylinder it's a bit premature to start blaming anyone. The shop may have absolutely no liability in the matter, it could well be material failure.

Clearly from your description there is an issue in cylinder 4, have it removed and find out what failed. If its a broken part you may well be able to get the overhauled to help you out in some fashion, but less likely if you run in with accusations and no proof.

Clarence

[82Mike]

Well the field mechanic did scope the one cylinder and it was clearly gone. I am going to have all the others scoped during the replacement of the bad one. When the engine was done in 2009 the prop was overhauled but no other work was done on the engine. The owner at that time used overhauled cylinders (which the overhaul shop says is fine)? Jim, your so on point with your minimums comment. I never go below 1000 foot minimums, but I really had no choice in this case I am not sure how much longer I was going to have a running engine! The shop is well known here, and I want to give them today to at least make a good faith attempt to provide some support. If they do not I am for sure going to register a complaint and I will reveal their response here upon their response back to me. My real question, for anyone who knows is will the oil filter capture the metal that broke from the #4 cylinder or are all the other cylinders subject to potential damage? Will scoping the other cylinders provide a pretty good picture of wether or not I will be facing a full engine overhaul? I really am not that versed in engine overhauls so the mediocre response by the shop who did the overhaul are very concerning.

Mike

[82Mike]

Thanks Clarence, at this point I have only contacted them and they have said it is out of warranty but they maybe able to help? This is the reason I don't really want to say who they are until I have more information. It was pretty scary!

[Hank]

Mike,

Jim's point was flying over widespread low IMC, not landing in low IMC. It's something for us all to think about, as options can be rather limited.

Good job with your flight, you seem to have handled the event well. Hopefully the engine won't need much else done.

[MARZ]

Mike - truly unnerving for something like that to  happen, and great job in  seeing it and reacting without hesitation. 

 

I'd wait to get the cylinder apart before passing judgment though - the field mechanic scoping It and saying it was clearly gone just lets you know that it failed, not the reason for the failure.   If it were improper installation that would be one thing, if it were a material failure that's another.  Not defending anyone, but clearly a forum is a precarious place to post what could possibly be unfounded accusations.

 

my 2 cents.

[Bartman]

The fact that you noted the gradual drop in oil pressure and early decision to divert tells me you are not complacent and strive to be a safe pilot. Many may not have noted the drop in pressure until the engine was ready to seize. Good job pilot !!!

However, I would not be quick to blame this on the rebuild shop. Sounds like something just let go whether it be a piston ring or piston itself. I think flying has its risks and we have to decide on risk versus benefit whether it be go-no go decision, personal minimums, or even TnG's vs full stops.

Personally, I have made my thoughts known should I have an unfortunate outcome during flight. I am not down playing your issue, but unless there is something obvious I don't want anyone to file suit against Aeroshell, Tempest, Goodyear, Garmin, King, Lycoming, Mooney, or the shop.

[chrisk]

Pull the cylinder and find out what is wrong.   Your going to have to do that anyway, as your plane is probably not airworthy.  At that point discussions may be more explicit in terms of blame, warranty, etc.

[rbridges]

sorry you got stranded in Dublin.  Decent little airport but kinda in the middle of nowhere.  

[BigTex]

I'll be interested in the root cause of the failure but this sounds like your engine suffered from an infant mortality failure due to a material or assembly issue.  There's a reason why they say you're more likely to have an engine failure with a new engine (<500 hours) than a mid or high time engine.  Just because you have a new engine you shouldn't think that you're safer... In reality, it's quite the opposite.

 

Here's a  couple of links to a good articles on Infant Mortality:

 

http://blog.aopa.org/opinionleaders/tag/infant-mortality/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve

[Skywarrior]

https://www.savvymx.com

 

Call Mike Busch 702-655-1359 .

 

He can give you good advice on what to check for, and how best to proceed.

[The-sky-captain]

I wouldn't call it infant mortality since the OH was done in 09'. It's not a lot of hours but a lot can happen to an engine and it's accessories over 5 years, even at sub 500 hours. There's a reason why warranties are based on hours as well as years. Hopefully the shop will be of assistance but if not I don't think trashing them on an open forum is the way to go, especially since the engine is officially out of warranty. The TBO on my io-360 is 2000 hours or 12 years. Many people don't realize the yearly limit and just look at the hours on an overhaul. That said I'm a big believer in flying well past TBO, hours or years, as long as the engine is showing healthy readings. Condolences go out to the OP, mechanical issues sure are frustrating. Good job on getting down safely!

[MARZ]

So another question - do engine warranties transfer?

[KSMooniac]

There is nowhere near enough information known yet (or reported here) to begin assigning blame.  Wait until the cylinder comes off and the real culprit is found.  It might be something way outside of the overhauling shop's control, such as a ring failure as already mentioned.  Excrement happens, especially with modern parts from the engine companies.

 

And frankly I'm surprised you had a 5 year warranty on a field overhaul...that is awfully generous already.  Annual inspections aren't likely to catch material failures inside the engine either.

 

Congrats on keeping your wits and continuing to fly the plane to a successful outcome.  You'll get to use it again, so be thankful for that.  

[N601RX]

4 quarts is a lot to be blown out by a broken ring unless you had been flying for a few hrs. I had 2 broken rings on different cylinders and several oil leaks when I overhauled my engine a couple years ago and was loosing a little over a quart per hr.

 

The "Solid 60 +" oil pressure on takeoff is still in the edge of the  green  but is lower than what most shops set the oil pressure at. Has it always been this low?

[82Mike]

I want to thank everyone that responded to this post.  I feel like I was clearly emotional about it yesterday, and it was for that reason I did not put the overhaul shops name on here.  Hopefully I have not trashed anyone at this point, because as some have said that is really unfair at this point until more is known.  Looking at my engine log from when the new (overhauled engine) was installed it has two entries that concern me.  The engine was done as stated in 01/09.  In April of 2011 the #4 cylinder (the one that is dead now) was "repaired" for oil blow by. This repair was done by the original shop that did the overhaul (someone said it was a field overhaul if I gave that impression it was wrong it was done by a "national" shop). The newly repaired cylinder was replaced and signed off on.  At annual in 2014 (February) the compressions were as follows #1 73 #2 72 #3 76 and #4 64.  While I know that 64 is within tolerance it concerns me that this same cylinder is causing the problems again yesterday.  I think what I am going to do is just go with a brand new cylinder and have all the checks done to make sure it is not more than that.  If the original shop wants to help great if not so be it.  At least I will feel better about it going forward.  From what I have learned so far I guess I did ok landing with 2 1/2 quarts of oil left as far as Lycoming is concerned, but it was really an interesting experience.  Again thank you all for your opinions I am clearly not an expert at this!!

[82Mike]

The oil pressure has always been around 65 since I have owned it?

[N601RX]

The oil pressure is adjustable. There has been some speculation that higher oil pressure is better and provides more oil to the rockers and valves.

[KSMooniac]

Any overhaul not done by the factory is a field overhaul. That can mean many different things, and it isn't necessarily a bad thing either.  Many field overhauls create a much better engine than what the factory spits out.

 

I agree that the oil pressure should be increased to the very top of the green.  

 

Please report back on what #4 looks like after it is removed.

[82Mike]

I will I think they are going to do the repairs tomorrow.  I will try to get pictures.

[Cruiser]

I want to thank everyone that responded to this post.  I feel like I was clearly emotional about it yesterday, and it was for that reason I did not put the overhaul shops name on here.  Hopefully I have not trashed anyone at this point, because as some have said that is really unfair at this point until more is known.  Looking at my engine log from when the new (overhauled engine) was installed it has two entries that concern me.  The engine was done as stated in 01/09.  In April of 2011 the #4 cylinder (the one that is dead now) was "repaired" for oil blow by. This repair was done by the original shop that did the overhaul (someone said it was a field overhaul if I gave that impression it was wrong it was done by a "national" shop). The newly repaired cylinder was replaced and signed off on.  At annual in 2014 (February) the compressions were as follows #1 73 #2 72 #3 76 and #4 64.  While I know that 64 is within tolerance it concerns me that this same cylinder is causing the problems again yesterday.  I think what I am going to do is just go with a brand new cylinder and have all the checks done to make sure it is not more than that.  If the original shop wants to help great if not so be it.  At least I will feel better about it going forward.  From what I have learned so far I guess I did ok landing with 2 1/2 quarts of oil left as far as Lycoming is concerned, but it was really an interesting experience.  Again thank you all for your opinions I am clearly not an expert at this!!

The above information in addition to the finding from the current failure is what you should provide to the overhaul shop. They should provide an answer to whether they believe these are related or isolated issues. I for one would be suspicious of recurring problems on the same cylinder.

[N601RX]

It would be good to know before doing any work if the oil pressure will adjust up above 65 or not.  There was another member a couple of years ago that could not adjust his oil pressure above 65psi.  If I remember correctly it turned out one of his piston oiling nozzles had worked itself out.