IFR Training

[Hedge]

I now have 150 TT and 95 hours in the m20e.  I have 75 hours cross country.  Enough hours to know that I need to get my instrument training.

 

Would you guys suggest getting a mooney specific CFI or should I just use a local guy.  I also need to train a little more on my plane, regarding emergency procedures, and slow flight.  I have had some interesting flight recently where I had to return to base pretty quickly as weather conditions changed very rapidly.

 

If anyone knows of a good CFI near Cincinnati, that would be appreciated.

 

Mark

[Hank]

Define "near Cinci." I did my IFR in my C with Attitude Aviation in Lawrence County, OH KHTW, across the River from Huntington, WV KHTS. They have ops at both fields. It should be about 30 Mooney minutes from Lunken, going by memory of weekend food runs.

Have fun! It's a lot of information, but our planes are great for it.

[WardHolbrook]

I now have 150 TT and 95 hours in the m20e.  I have 75 hours cross country.  Enough hours to know that I need to get my instrument training.

 

Would you guys suggest getting a mooney specific CFI or should I just use a local guy.  I also need to train a little more on my plane, regarding emergency procedures, and slow flight.  I have had some interesting flight recently where I had to return to base pretty quickly as weather conditions changed very rapidly.

 

If anyone knows of a good CFI near Cincinnati, that would be appreciated.

 

Mark

As a CFII, I don't see where having a "Mooney specific CFI" would be necessary. The CFII is going to be teaching you how to fly instruments, not how to fly a Mooney. 

[Marauder]

As a CFII, I don't see where having a "Mooney specific CFI" would be necessary. The CFII is going to be teaching you how to fly instruments, not how to fly a Mooney.

I think it depends on whether or not you get someone who will take the time upfront to understand the specifics of a Mooney (or any plane). About 10 years ago I went to do an IPC at a local flight school. I got a young CFII who wasn't familiar with Mooneys and in particular a Mooney with low gear speeds.

I tried to tell him during the preflight about the VLe and VLo limits but he insisted that we fly an approach to an ILS at 120 KIAS. I humored him. When we got to the glideslope intercept he wanted me to drop the gear. No can do. He then wanted me to drop the flaps. No can do. When he wanted me to go to idle and pull up, I had enough.

I did the miss and showed him how to fly a stabilized approach. The guy who got me through my IR wasn't "Mooney specific" but knew enough to go through the POH with me to understand what limits I had to work with and took the time to build out the power and configuration grid for instrument flying.

[WardHolbrook]

I think it depends on whether or not you get someone who will take the time upfront to understand the specifics of a Mooney (or any plane). About 10 years ago I went to do an IPC at a local flight school. I got a young CFII who wasn't familiar with Mooneys and in particular a Mooney with low gear speeds.

I tried to tell him during the preflight about the VLe and VLo limits but he insisted that we fly an approach to an ILS at 120 KIAS. I humored him. When we got to the glideslope intercept he wanted me to drop the gear. No can do. He then wanted me to drop the flaps. No can do. When he wanted me to go to idle and pull up, I had enough.

I did the miss and showed him how to fly a stabilized approach. The guy who got me through my IR wasn't "Mooney specific" but knew enough to go through the POH with me to understand what limits I had to work with and took the time to build out the power and configuration grid for instrument flying.

That's simply a CFI issue. Of course, every airplane will have slight differences in airspeeds and procedures, but a good CFI will do his/her homework before initiating the training.  

[VetRepp]

The Mooney is a very stable instrument platform and the basics of IFR flying can be taught by any CFII, but If you don't plan on flying a lot of other planes in the near future, and both are strong CFII's , then YES, why not get a Mooney specific CFII and use him to learn as much as you can about both Mooneys and Instrument flying. My 2 cents.

Good luck on your IFR - It is very much worth it !!

[Houman]

Well every CFII should familiarize himself with a plane he is flying. In my short flying life, I have had a few CFII's and I would be nervous if I'm going to fly with one of them in my plane that they don't know and don't ask to look at the POH.

With my previous instructor who if an airline instructor giving training on Airbus and Boeing planes, he had some mooney experience, but before we ever flow the plane, we took more than 2h going trough the POH, especially the normal and emergency procedures, it just make sense...

[WardHolbrook]

Guys, don't misunderstand what I'm saying. A good Mooney instructor, may or may not be a good instrument instructor and a good instrument instructor may or may not be familiar with with Mooneys. As one who is both familiar with Mooneys and a CFII, I'm simply saying that I believe that Hedge would be best served by locating the best instrument instructor that is available to him. If he happens to find a good CFII who is familiar with Mooneys then that's nice, but his primary focus during his primary instrument training should be on just that - his instrument training. A good CFII will take the time necessary to familiarize him/herself with the idiosyncrasies of the particular airframe/avionics combo that they're using for the training. Which brings up another point - things have changed, a lot, over the past 5 to 10 years. The CFI that you end up selecting needs to be "fluent" with  the type of panel that is in the airplane you're training in. There are a lot of new CFIs who have never flown anything but glass and there are some older CFIs who have had little/no experience with it. Don't assume - ask. 

 

Now, knowing what I know, how would I go about locating such a CFII? Simple, I would call the local FAA FDSO office and get of list of the local DPEs. Then I would contact a few of the DPEs and ask them for a list of a few CFIIs who they could recommend. It should not take very long to come up with a pool of good qualified CFIIs from which to select your instructor. (Especially if the DPEs' recommendations overlap.) Those DPEs know the active CFIIs in the area. They know, first hand, the quality of the students they turn out. They should be able to provide you with a list of a few candidate CFIIs that you can interview. Personally. what I would be looking for is someone who you can communicate with, whose teaching style meshes with your learning style and who has a lot of experience using "the system" in the real world - someone who has been there and done that out in the real world and can pass along those occasional nuggets gained through experience. The problem with many of the current crop of CFIs is that their experience is often limited to the training environment as they gain the hours necessary to move on. That's good for the overall system, but not necessarily the best for you as an individual student.  

[Hedge]

Thank you Ward.  That is exactly what I was wanting.  The only problem that I have with my Mooney, and I am going to try and get it fixed is that it pulls to the left with the wing leveler on and then it dives to the right with it off.  So I have to always keep my hands on the yoke, which makes it hard to trim out and fly level because I always have to have pressure on the yoke.  

 

Because of this, I usually have to fly by feel in my approaches and can't fly by the numbers.  So all of my landings are not very consistent.  My plane is in for the annual and I am hoping that stuff gets worked out.

 

I just don't know how a Mooney is supposed to be flown yet.  But I agree, I want a very good CFII because my CFI wasn't very good.  I like your approach.

[Hedge]

Define "near Cinci." I did my IFR in my C with Attitude Aviation in Lawrence County, OH KHTW, across the River from Huntington, WV KHTS. They have ops at both fields. It should be about 30 Mooney minutes from Lunken, going by memory of weekend food runs.

Have fun! It's a lot of information, but our planes are great for it.

I am west of Cincinnati, so Hamilton, Middletown, Lebanon, Harrison, and Cincinnati are all viable.  Thanks for the post.

[Hedge]

The Mooney is a very stable instrument platform and the basics of IFR flying can be taught by any CFII, but If you don't plan on flying a lot of other planes in the near future, and both are strong CFII's , then YES, why not get a Mooney specific CFII and use him to learn as much as you can about both Mooneys and Instrument flying. My 2 cents.

Good luck on your IFR - It is very much worth it !!

This is what I was thinking.  Learn more about the plane and get my instrument at the same time.

[WardHolbrook]

Thank you Ward.  That is exactly what I was wanting.  The only problem that I have with my Mooney, and I am going to try and get it fixed is that it pulls to the left with the wing leveler on and then it dives to the right with it off.  So I have to always keep my hands on the yoke, which makes it hard to trim out and fly level because I always have to have pressure on the yoke... 

Get your airplane flying correctly before you start working on your IR. There's no point in making it any more difficult than it is. Honestly, a Mooney is just another airplane when it comes to instrument flying so don't get too wrapped around the axle looking for a Mooney master who also is a CFII. The instrument flying basics are the same in all airplanes - even the jets that I fly at work. Any CFII that is competent in any of the complex high-performance piston singles or twins will be right at home in the Mooney when it comes to the instrument part of it. You just might have to show him the need for proper airspeed control as you're crossing the fence. (Some of those Bonanza pilots can get pretty sloppy. ) However, like I said, make sure he's fluent in whatever avionics package you've got. Good luck. Enjoy the process and keep us updated. 

 

 

 

[Hank]

Thank you Ward.  That is exactly what I was wanting.  The only problem that I have with my Mooney, and I am going to try and get it fixed is that it pulls to the left with the wing leveler on and then it dives to the right with it off.  So I have to always keep my hands on the yoke, which makes it hard to trim out and fly level because I always have to have pressure on the yoke.  

 

Because of this, I usually have to fly by feel in my approaches and can't fly by the numbers.  So all of my landings are not very consistent.  My plane is in for the annual and I am hoping that stuff gets worked out.

 

I just don't know how a Mooney is supposed to be flown yet.  But I agree, I want a very good CFII because my CFI wasn't very good.  I like your approach.

 

Sounds like you have a torn rubber boot on a wing servo. Pull the inspection panel at the inboard end of the ailerons, the servos are the size of a soupcan with a rubber sleeve around the back end. Look for a tear in the sleeve. Mine pulled like that, and one boot had a hole 1½" long. Sent it to Brittain and they replaced it and sent it back with a yellow tag, all for ~$130. Now the plane flies level, hands off.

 

You can also adjust the level with the little knob on the Turn Coordinator. Rotate it in the direction you want to bank. If it won't stay level even turned all the way, you have a leak, most commonly in the boot. But it can be in a connector on a tubing line, too. I replaced all of mine a few years ago.

[Marauder]

Sounds like you have a torn rubber boot on a wing servo. Pull the inspection panel at the inboard end of the ailerons, the servos are the size of a soupcan with a rubber sleeve around the back end. Look for a tear in the sleeve. Mine pulled like that, and one boot had a hole 1½" long. Sent it to Brittain and they replaced it and sent it back with a yellow tag, all for ~$130. Now the plane flies level, hands off.

You can also adjust the level with the little knob on the Turn Coordinator. Rotate it in the direction you want to bank. If it won't stay level even turned all the way, you have a leak, most commonly in the boot. But it can be in a connector on a tubing line, too. I replaced all of mine a few years ago.

I see Mark started a separate thread on the turning tendency. I'm not so certain his plane is rigged correctly. The wing leveler may be trying to compensate for a poorly rigged plane.

[Bartman]

I did my IFR training with a local CFII with a good reputation who teaches in his 172. I did about half in his airplane and about half in mine. Perhaps it made it slightly more challenging, but other than the actual landings in the two aircraft I saw no significant difference in the encounter phase or approaches. The important thing was I had a good instructor. Used Coleman aviation at KFGX for my IFR checkride and passed no problem.

I agree with Ward. Get your airplane fixed, or use another airplane. That's a distraction you don't need, and may be a safety issue in instrument conditions.

[Ftlausa]

I am doing my IFR training now, and the CFII has no Mooney time but lots of time in a variety of different aircraft.  He and I discussed Mooney characteristics and appropriate speeds for my aircraft before we flew the approaches, and all was fine.  I flew with a different (younger) CFII prior to this one, and we wanted to argue with me over speeds and configuration.  He lasted one flight.  

[WardHolbrook]

I see Mark started a separate thread on the turning tendency. I'm not so certain his plane is rigged correctly. The wing leveler may be trying to compensate for a poorly rigged plane.

For what it's worth, that's the first thing I'd look at too, but then I always check the rigging of older airplanes.

[WardHolbrook]

I am doing my IFR training now, and the CFII has no Mooney time but lots of time in a variety of different aircraft.  He and I discussed Mooney characteristics and appropriate speeds for my aircraft before we flew the approaches, and all was fine.  I flew with a different (younger) CFII prior to this one, and we wanted to argue with me over speeds and configuration.  He lasted one flight.  

I might comment on it too if you're coming in 5 to 10 knots too fast and landing with partial flaps to compensate for it. 

[1964-M20E]

Above all get someone you can work with well.  You can educate him on the Mooney if needed.  He is there to help you get your IR.  In fact you are teaching yourself how to fly in the instrument system and without reference to the outside world.  The instructor is there observing you, giving you advice, signing off your logbook and to be a safety pilot.

[ryoder]

Good point John. In the end the learner takes personal responsibility for his learning.

[carusoam]

I like the CFII that owns the same (nearly, close as possible) airplane that I have.

There is so much to know.

Some things you have to know for the rating...

others you want to know to best fly your plane...

But, to be exposed to it all, makes it worth the extra that it may cost.

Go long body CFI!

Best regards,

-a-

[mike_elliott]

While instrument flying basics is the same regardless of what plane you are in, proper instrument flying is precision flying. That means really knowing your plane and most importantly it's systems. Don't seek out one who can teach you how to center needles, seek out one who knows how to teach you to master the speeds, systems and interact with your plane. Think of this as a type rating as much as it is an instrument rating. Granted the basic skill set is transferable from one airplane to another, but why not get the complete education when it typically is the same or less cost? Ward is correct, get your plane rigged properly before you start. YMMV

[Hedge]

Thanks for all the advice.  I have called a couple of DPEs to get their recommendations on instructors and it is funny how much information they will tell your regarding instructors.  Nothing personal, but they did tell who they thought was much better than others.  I am interviewing a couple of these guys so that I have everything set up when I get my plane right.

 

Mark

[mike_elliott]

The best instructors are the ones that are booked up all the time, I've been told. While it shouldn't matter, your practical might go better if you use an instructor recommended by a dpe. Keep in mind, the dpe is really validating the instructors recommendation