ATP Rule Change - Written by July 31, 2014 a good idea?

[Seth]

I recently stumbled across some information I was not aware about.  Not sure I'll ever go for my ATP but in case I do, and as many of you know, there have been some rule changes:

 

After July 31st, in order to get your ATP you'll have to have 1500 hours AND training in a simulator for multiple hours.  The is also a ground school component that is vastly more than today's requirements.  Also, they are splitting the test for SE vs ME - current test covers both.

 

However, there seems to be a loophole.  I think by reading and hearing, if you plan to get your ATP, and you pass the written test prior to August 1, 2014 (so take it on or before July 31st), you have a 24 month window to pass the oral and practical under the old standards - no multiple hours in a full motion simulator (which would be cool, but expensive) nor the 10 or 30 hours of ground training.  So, a minimum of $5000, maybe $15,000 in savings.

 

So, my question here is:

 

1.  What do you know about this and are my facts above generally correct

2.  In order to take the ATP written, do you have to be a CFI, CFII, Commercial?  Etc . . .

 

I may bang out the ATP written before July 31st if it gives me a two year window to potentially go after the ATP, but I want to make sure my assumptions are correct.

 

By the end of this year I plan to have my Commercial (just about ready for the written), CFI, and CFII.  I've decided to get the CFII which has always been a long term goal after flying right seat safety pilot for a friend working on his Instrument rating. 

 

The changes to the ATP if I'm going to go get the other ratings by the end of the year may make me want to simply take the written test out of order to have that in my back pocket if I want to go for it in the next 25 months (since it's June and I'd take the test in July).

 

Would love some good old "MooneySpace" clarification.

 

And yes, not sure if I'll ever use it, but why not continue learning aviation, and I'll have it if I ever do want to dabble or go full time that way (many ideas, you guys are aware).

 

Take care,

 

 

-Seth

[Jerry 5TJ]

If you want a multi-engine ATP after August you need to take the training before taking the ATP written.    The relevant FAR reads:

 

§61.153   Eligibility requirements: General.

To be eligible for an airline transport pilot certificate, a person must:

(a) Meet the following age requirements:

(1) For an airline transport pilot certificate obtained under the aeronautical experience requirements of §§61.159, 61.161, or 61.163, be at least 23 years of age; or

(2) For an airline transport pilot certificate obtained under the aeronautical experience requirements of §61.160, be at least 21 years of age.

(Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language. If the applicant is unable to meet one of these requirements due to medical reasons, then the Administrator may place such operating limitations on that applicant's pilot certificate as are necessary for the safe operation of the aircraft;

(c.) Be of good moral character;

(d) Meet at least one of the following requirements:

(1) Holds a commercial pilot certificate with an instrument rating issued under this part;

(2) Meet the military experience requirements under §61.73 of this part to qualify for a commercial pilot certificate, and an instrument rating if the person is a rated military pilot or former rated military pilot of an Armed Force of the United States; or

(3) Holds either a foreign airline transport pilot license with instrument privileges, or a foreign commercial pilot license with an instrument rating, that—

(i) Was issued by a contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation; and

(ii) Contains no geographical limitations.

(e) After July 31, 2014, for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category multiengine class rating or an airline transport pilot certificate obtained concurrently with an airplane type rating, receive a graduation certificate from an authorized training provider certifying completion of the airline transport pilot certification training program specified in §61.156 before applying for the knowledge test required by paragraph (g) of this section;

(f) Meet the aeronautical experience requirements of this subpart that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought before applying for the practical test;

(g) Pass a knowledge test on the aeronautical knowledge areas of §61.155© of this part that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought;

(h) Pass the practical test on the areas of operation listed in §61.157(e) of this part that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought; and

(i) Comply with the sections of this subpart that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought.

 

 

Ref  http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retrieveECFR?gp&SID=257acc4699ee7253af775fc7e9492e51&r=PART&n=14y2.0.1.1.2#14:2.0.1.1.2.7.1.2

[rbridges]

here's something on POA.  Not the same question, but I think it touches on some of the requirements.

 

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70910&highlight=atp

[Seth]

According to AOPA - I called them to ask, you do not need a CFI or CFII rating to take the exam, nor the ground school or training prior to August 1st, 2014.

 

 

According to ATP Flight School, I called them to ask - after August 1st you'll need the following prior to being signed off to take the written:

 

30 Hours of Ground

10 Hours in full motion sim (expensive - $10,000 ish)

 

AND . . . all you have to be is 21 to take the test (since you can't take the practical until age 23, that's your 24 month window). No CFI, Commerical CFII, etc needed. 

 

 

So . . . if anyone is thinking of ever earning their ATP, go ahead and take the written by July 31st and then decide over the next two years if you want to finish it, because otherwise you'll have to drop an extra $10,000 to $15,000 on training to get it.

 

-Seth

[John Pleisse]

I finished my commercial a month before my first child was born and I was just about ready for the CFI.......14 years later...................

 

I am short several hundred hours, missing a lot of night hours too. If interested in an ATP, your best bet would be to do it on conjunction with your first type cert. I also think a cottage industry would grow for full motion SIMS to this end. I swore just after my instrument rating that I would never stop until I got an ATP Cert...now this will become harder.

[WilliamR]

One thing that I think has been glossed over is the need to do the ATP-ME rating within the two years of the written (so long as the written is completed before Aug.1,2014).  So, let's say you do the "dual" ATP written by Aug 1, 2014.  Then, you take the practical ATP-SE checkride and pass (let's say you complete that September 30, 2014).  You cannot simply do an ATP-ME add-on as you would do today.  Instead, you would have to adhere to CFR §61.156 to do your ATP-ME add-on.

 

Alternatively, if you take your ATP knowledge test before Aug. 1, 2014 and take the practical ATP-ME checkride and pass, adding the ATP-SE is relatively simple and you do not need to adhere to §61.156.

 

If you just want to do an ATP-SE, you do not need to adhere to §61.156 as that only applies to the multi-engine class rating.  Therefore, if you want just an ATP-SE, you could take the ATP-SE knowledge test in December 2014 and take the practical in January 2015 without having to meet the requirements of  §61.156.

 

Clear as mud right?  Unfortunately, this change of reg. completely misses the issue from the Colgan air crash it was trying resolve.

 

William

 

CFI-I ASEL, Commercial ASES, ATP-ME (late '14)

[Seth]

ME - The SE would be an add on if needed.  Really, the only reason for the ATP SE would be a Cessna Caravan or PC-12, right?  Except, you can fly those anyway with a Commercial rating unless the company requires an ATP, correct?

 

-Seth

[WilliamR]

Anytime you flew 135 single engine you would obviously need an ATP-SE.  That would include ImagineAir's SR-22s or Epps Charter's PC-12.   To your point, if you flew CFR 91 for a company (a corporate pilot), the company would most likely want an ATP as well.

 

I hear ImagineAir is hiring.  I just need to ditch this crummy Investment Banking job first. 

 

William

[flhelo]

I wonder how this will effect a helicopter ATP?  It doesn't talk about it in the CFR's. Yes, I am dual rated 

[Seth]

Anytime you flew 135 single engine you would obviously need an ATP-SE. That would include ImagineAir's SR-22s or Epps Charter's PC-12. To your point, if you flew CFR 91 for a company (a corporate pilot), the company would most likely want an ATP as well.

I hear ImagineAir is hiring. I just need to ditch this crummy Investment Banking job first.

William

And I need to stop helping my clients invest, protect, retire well and set up legacies for their families for generations to come!! Independent Financial Advosor.

I just have this aviation obsession

[midlifeflyer]

According to AOPA - I called them to ask, you do not need a CFI or CFII rating to take the exam 

 

Of course not .

[midlifeflyer]

I wonder how this will effect a helicopter ATP?  It doesn't talk about it in the CFR's. Yes, I am dual rated 

Sure it does. From the quote of the reg above:

 

 

 

(e) After July 31, 2014, for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category multiengine class rating or an airline transport pilot certificate obtained concurrently with an airplane type rating, receive a graduation certificate from an authorized training provider certifying completion of the airline transport pilot certification training program specified in §61.156 before applying for the knowledge test required by paragraph (g) of this section;

 

That same language appears in all of the other new ATP requirement regs. For example:§ 61.156 Training requirements: Airplane category--multiengine class rating or airplane type rating concurrently with airline transport pilot certificate says:

After July 31, 2014, a person who applies for the knowledge test for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category multiengine class rating must present a graduation certificate from an authorized training provider under part 121, 135, 141, or 142 of this chapter certifying the applicant has completed the following training in a course approved by the Administrator.

 

 

If you're not looking for an ATP certificate with a multiegine or initial type rating, the special education rule does not apply.

[Hank]

The regs you just quoted are covered up in words like "airplane category" and "airplane type rating," etc. The question asked is about ATP-Rotorcraft, which does not appear to be mentioned in this new rule. Hmmm--check with AOPA.

[mike_elliott]

If you want to pursue an ATP Multi engine rating after aug 1, you will need to do the sim training if you do not complete the written by Aug 1. If you want to pursue a SEL ATP rating and do not complete the written by aug. 1, no big deal. nothing has changed.

[John Pleisse]

Could somebody clarify the need to meet the new standards? Am I correct to understand the new Class C SIM requirement is only for MEL ATP and not SEL? I want to earn an ATP SEL (I know, useless...just for cocktail parties). The cut off dates and new SIM requirements are only for Multi.....right?

 

Also, it should also be noted that the 10 hours of SIM only require 6 of full motion Class C, "by standards to be determined later". This may not be that hindering....may shake out to have less impact.

[M016576]

If you're interested in becoming a professional for hire pilot, and have the time and means, then do your written before 1 Aug- you'll save yourself time and money.

If you're an investment banker, a financial advisor, a lawyer, a doctor, or anyone else that has no direct financial need for the qualification, I'd skip it. Unless, of course, you're casually interested in pallet weight loading for CG purposes, or cockpit CRM / ORM philosophy.

The idea behind the new standards are to ensure that applicants are better trained. The direct result, however, is that pilot candidates that at attempting to make a living at flying are being forced to burden an additional 10 or so K in debt / loans, where they can look forward to an initial salary of 25-35k / yr. great job FAA / AOPA. You're effectively crushing professional pilots with debt. The sad thing, IMO, is that you can spend a ton of time training- but practical experience is where this increase in regulation should have been focused; ie hold the actual part 121/135 operators accountable for a more robust recurrent training program. Don't add another 10K onto our already Raman-eating ATP candidates.

Rant complete.

Ps- the written test questions are for the most part outside the scope of GA.

Edit- if you just want the test questions for your own knowledge, or to evaluate for yourself whether you do or do not want to pursue your ATP, if recommend purchasing the Sheppard Air test prep kit for $75 dollars. It has every question in the test bank in it, updated via internet every time you open the program, and with multiple test prep setups. If you buy the prep, they garauntee a score of 90% or better or your money back...

[midlifeflyer]

Could somebody clarify the need to meet the new standards? Am I correct to understand the new Class C SIM requirement is only for MEL ATP and not SEL? I want to earn an ATP SEL (I know, useless...just for cocktail parties). The cut off dates and new SIM requirements are only for Multi.....right?

 

 

Correct. See my post above. The FAA is generally very good at saying what the requirements are and what they apply to.

[midlifeflyer]

The regs you just quoted are covered up in words like "airplane category" and "airplane type rating," etc. The question asked is about ATP-Rotorcraft, which does not appear to be mentioned in this new rule. Hmmm--check with AOPA.

or..

 

Hmmm-since it doesn't say it applies to helicopters it doesn't. 

[flyboy0681]

Just another obstacle in the way for kids wanting to pursue aviation as a career.

 

The first obstacle was the disappearance of observation areas around airports post 9/11.

[Seth]

So July 31st came and went - did anyone take their ATP Written and pass?

 

-Seth

[N201MKTurbo]

I did. Took my ATP 121. Could have studied more but ran out of time. Only got a 78. Worst FAA test ever. It was kind of hard.

[flyboy0681]

I did. Took my ATP 121. Could have studied more but ran out of time. Only got a 78. Worst FAA test ever. It was kind of hard.

 

It's supposed to be difficult. I wouldn't want the guy flying up front to be the one that just barely passed just as I wouldn't want to be operated on by a surgeon who just squeaked by on his medical boards.

[N201MKTurbo]

What do they call the the guy who finished last in his class at the worst medical school in the world?

 

"Doctor"

[flyboy0681]

What do they call the the guy who finished last in his class at the worst medical school in the world?

 

"Doctor"

 

Defendant.

[Mooneymite]

I did. Took my ATP 121. 

.

Congratulations, Captain!