Oil analysis back from the lab

[MooneyBob]

I got my oil analysis from Blackstone. See attached picture.

A little history on the engine:

The engine was installed as new in the plane in 1999 and it had only about 500 hrs when I've got it few months ago. The issue I am concerned about is that the engine ran only 20-25hours/year for last 5 years so I consider it as inactive for 5 years and it could be pretty rusty inside.

I put 20 hours on it after I purchased the plane with the fresh oil and annual.

We have changed oil now, send the sample to the Blackstone and cut the filter open. My mechanic said he didn't find any visible metal particles in the filter. I hope I can believe it as I wasn't present.

The oil was Aeroshell 15-50 and I changed it now for Phillips and Camguard.

I can't wait to run the engine for another 15-20 hours and send the oil for analysis again, change the oil and cut the filter open. I hope the metal numbers will improve or at least stay stable. I don't really know how bad are those numbers now. I know the levels are roughly 3 times more than average but I don't know how serious it is. Any ideas? Thank you.

[DS1980]

I like the change to Phillips with Camguard. You now have a baseline. I only see everything improving with regular flying and the switch to Camguard. It might also behoove you to get a bore scope in the cylinders. A picture is worth a thousand words and in this case, a peace of mind. Make sure the mechanic knows what to look for through the bore scope, as many are used to performing compressions checks and haven't been trained on what to look for when borescoping.

 

Borescoping is not a word. I made it up.

[KSMooniac]

I agree with Darin.  I'd give it the "Italian tuneup" (fly the crap out of it!) for 25 hours and send in another sample.  Hopefully the metal numbers decline as the lab suggests...and hopefully there aren't pits in your cam and lifters already because you can't see them or fix them easily.

[DS1980]

Italian tuneup. Love it.

[MooneyBob]

I agree with Darin. I'd give it the "Italian tuneup" (fly the crap out of it!) for 25 hours and send in another sample. Hopefully the metal numbers decline as the lab suggests...and hopefully there aren't pits in your cam and lifters already because you can't see them or fix them easily.

Would the pits in the cam and lifters cause any visible metal particles in the filter as it becomes progressively worse?

[KSMooniac]

Would the pits in the cam and lifters cause any visible metal particles in the filter as it become progressively worse?

Possibly, but they are more likely to be found in the pickup screen that goes into the sump and not make it to the filter.  It is a PITA to check, though.  If you have an issue, it likely won't be a catastrophic failure that "gets you" quickly...it will be a slow erosion of the lobe, or at least that is what happened to me.

 

Also, do you have an engine monitor?  If so, you can track the individual cylinder peaking behavior, and if you see 1 & 2 consistently peak together at a different time than 3 & 4, that should give you cause to consider pulling a cylinder and looking at the cam and lifters.

[MooneyBob]

Possibly, but they are more likely to be found in the pickup screen that goes into the sump and not make it to the filter.  It is a PITA to check, though.  If you have an issue, it likely won't be a catastrophic failure that "gets you" quickly...it will be a slow erosion of the lobe, or at least that is what happened to me.

 

Also, do you have an engine monitor?  If so, you can track the individual cylinder peaking behavior, and if you see 1 & 2 consistently peak together at a different time than 3 & 4, that should give you cause to consider pulling a cylinder and looking at the cam and lifters.

No engine monitor yet. I am working on it and waiting for some good deals at Sun n Fun. I know it is a critical piece of equipment to have.

[KSMooniac]

Definitely.  Very high bang-for-the-buck factor, and SnF is a great time to buy.  There are a lot of used ones on the market now with a lot of folks upgrading, but unfortunately buying new probes is expensive.  I see Wentworth selling some good ones with probes on ebay from time to time, and they might have better deals at SnF (I think they go, they go to OSH every year, but that is closer).  I have an EDM-700 with fuel flow and it is a great, great instrument.  I am planning to upgrade to the EDM-900 eventually, though.

[MooneyBob]

Definitely.  Very high bang-for-the-buck factor, and SnF is a great time to buy.  There are a lot of used ones on the market now with a lot of folks upgrading, but unfortunately buying new probes is expensive.  I see Wentworth selling some good ones with probes on ebay from time to time, and they might have better deals at SnF (I think they go, they go to OSH every year, but that is closer).  I have an EDM-700 with fuel flow and it is a great, great instrument.  I am planning to upgrade to the EDM-900 eventually, though.

I am considering CGR-30P from EI. Interesting small machine for good price. And it's primary.

[Guest]

Would the pits in the cam and lifters cause any visible metal particles in the filter as it becomes progressively worse?

Bob,

The particle size created with camshaft and lifter failure will be caught in the primary oil filter. They are small enough to pass through the holes in the suction screen.

Use of a very strong magnet will pull them out of the filter media. Failure is slow and gradual and of late is not just a Lycoming problem, we are also seeing in in Continental engines as well.

Clarence

[Marauder]

Another thing you can do Bob is buy a rare earth magnet and attached it to the oil filter. When you do the next oil change, all magnetic fines will be picked up and held on the wall of the oil filter. Makes it a bit easier to see how much is there.

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[orionflt]

Another thing you can do Bob is buy a rare earth magnet and attached it to the oil filter. When you do the next oil change, all magnetic fines will be picked up and held on the wall of the oil filter. Makes it a bit easier to see how much is there.

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Tempest oil filters have a magnet in them already:

 

Brian

[Marauder]

Tempest oil filters have a magnet in them already: Brian

Any idea how much the street prices are for Tempests? You know, as a cheap bast{#rd I have an image to keep up. Sent using Tapatalk

[orionflt]

Bob,

keep running the engine and as stated above change the oil every 25 hours until the numbers drop. I can almost guarantee that if you opened the engine right now you would see pitting on the piston skirts and spalling on the cam shaft and tappets, that being said it doesn't mean your engine is unairworthy, there are plenty of engines out there in the same condition and they will run to TBO. once the surface corrosion is wiped away from use, your metal numbers should drop back down in the average range and as long as you do not let the aircraft sit for long periods of time the additional wear will be minimal. 

 

Brian

[orionflt]

Any idea how much the street prices are for Tempests? You know, as a cheap bast{#rd I have an image to keep up. Sent using Tapatalk

I'm so cheap i buy them in packs of 6, last time i bought them it averaged out to $15 a filter. looks like spruce has them for $18.50 for single, $105.00 for the six pack ($17.50ea)

 

Brian

[Guest]

In my experience cam and lifter failure leads to metal particles in the oil filter. The metal will never go away. Once the damage is done it just continues.

If you disassemble the engine you will find ferrous metal particles embedded in the skirts of the pistons. If you leave it long enough these particles will destroy the finish on you cylinder walls.

If you find ferrous metal in the filter several times in a row you should investigate and repair the source.

Clarence

[Cruiser]

Clarence is right on, unfortunately. 

 

If corrosion has progressed to the point of rust penetrating the surface of the tappet and/or cam lob, a stress point is created on the edge of the rust spot. When the cam lob rolls over this microscopic indentation in the surface extreme pressure is focused on the edge of the "pit" as the cam lob lifts the pressure is rapidly reduced and it also weakens or "lifts" the metal. This is a very slow process but it will eventually get worse. slowly the hardened surface of the tappet/cam lob will be flaked (spalled) away and the softer metal underneath will rapidly come apart and end up in the oil filter.

 

Since this action is not "wearing" down the metal, it will never show up in the oil analysis. Often oil analysis will continue to good good until the next oil change when the oil filter is opened and it is filled with metal.