Thinking about a Mooney

[Taildragon]

Hey guy's... I'm new to the forum and have done all the appropriate searches re: Buying a Mooney, Vintage Mooney, Transition, etc...  I think I have narrowed my search down to a pre-69 Model F as I think it best fits my mission.

 

To that end, I currently own a 2000 Maule MX180C that I love and will likely keep.  It's a great back-country ship with a 430W, 250XL, Stec 30, and a 396 in the yoke.  My goal is to find a F model that has a similar avionics configuration.  The problem with the Maule is that it isn't a very good IFR platform and X-country's with the family just take too long.  I think a Mooney would be adequate for the a couple family vacations per year and the rest of the time me flying solo x-country's for work.

 

So my questions are around transition and x-wind capabilities:  

 

On transition: I've read all I could find on here about transition time and it seems that 10-20 hours is about standard (seems high though).  What is it that causes such a high transition time into these aircraft?  My Maule is arguably one of the toughest aircraft to control on the ground (there is a reason insurance rates are high as are the incidence of prop-strikes and ground loops).  Is it just the slippery airframe and flying by the numbers that people find hard to master?

 

On x-wind:  The Maule has a very low demonstrated x-wind capability and my personal limit is around 13MPH of direct x-wind.  Beyond 13MPH, it's hard to taxi.  It really limits where and when I can fly (as evidenced by the last two months of no flying because of the wind here in Denver).  So, I've read the specs and understand that a lot of it comes down to pilot skill; but what is an average top x-wind these will handle?

 

I appreciate your insights...

[MARZ]

I've personally done 15 gusting 22 (KTS) crosswind - actually practiced in it.  Not something that I'd subject my family to.

[carusoam]

I'm thinking about a Mooney too. Mine!!!

Insurance costs dictate the transition time....

Training minimizes the transition costs.

If you can follow procedures and control airspeed, you will be good to go.

If you can't, it can get expensive...quickly.

Best regards,

-a-

[rob]

I live in Kansas and own an M20C (which is for sale by the way). I regularly land and take off in crosswinds exceeding 15kts. The trick, to me, is to decrease flap usage as wind speeds increase. That affords you the ability to keep the speed a bit higher and increase rudder effectiveness. If I had to guess I would say that a 20kt direct crosswind is the most I've dealt with, as a component of a much stronger quartering headwind. And while that wasn't pretty, it also wasn't unsafe. 

 

As far as transition time, airspeed control is the main issue in my opinion. If you're fast, you float. A secondary issue is the manual gear, if you have it. It takes a minute (and some arm workouts) to learn how to properly retract and extend the gear. Once you have the hang of it though, it's a piece of cake. The M20 is actually quite easy to actually fly, and will be a breeze to taxi for you. 

[Joe Zuffoletto]

Hi Taildragon! I'm based in Denver too (KAPA). I have a Mooney Acclaim and a Vans RV-8. There are definitely breezy days out here when the RV-8 stays in the hangar but I have no problem launching with the Mooney. I've approached Centennial in some pretty gusty conditions over the past 8 years and I've always been able to set down except for one time, when a microburst crashed down on the airport when I was on 5-mile final and I decided to go hold for a while 20 miles southeast until things settled down.

 

As far as transition time goes, my first Mooney was a 1998 Encore (K model) that I bought in 2000 from a dealer in Minneapolis. One of their pilots flew back with me to Oakland, CA (I was living in the Bay Area at that time). We did 3 legs in 10 hours... half VFR, half hard IFR, and by the time we got to Oakland I felt very comfortable with the Mooney.

 

Where are you based? Maybe we can meet sometime.

[fantom]

After you buy your Mooney, you won't think about it every day, you'll think about it ALL day....

 

The plane will handle higher cross winds than the pilot will, in most instances. The more you do them, the better you'll get, not that I think going out and practicing them in high wind conditions is a good idea.

[pinerunner]

I just went through the transition two years ago. I was low hours (~300) but had a commercial that I earned back in the 70's ( complex time was in a 180 hp Comanche).  I had soloed a J3 cub and was raised on a seaplane base so I had a kind of bush background. I fell in love with basic flying characteristics of M20E I was flying (and later bought). It was and remains a very well behaved airplane and I don't think it has what I would consider nasty habits and I didn't find the transition to be bad. It's not like you're getting a P51.

 

Prop strikes are a big deal with Mooneys, you really want to touch down the mains first, period, very little forgiveness for error here. Since you're flown a taildragger I can't imagine getting this part wrong. I don't think I could bring myself to force the nose down if I came in hot; it would likely flip a seaplane and just seems insane to me.  I've seen it done, however, at an airport where I was watching from the tower; it was ugly to watch but they seem to have got away with it (not flying a Mooney). We've had one report of prop strike here due to a rut in the taxi-way so be picky where you take your Mooney. They sit low on the ground. 

 

Since they sit low, they feel ground effect more than just about any other plane. That's part of why they float down the runway so long if you come in hot. They can also lift off early before they're quite ready to truly get away from the ground so I don't try to lift off before reaching 60 mph. I think maybe it makes them surprisingly easy in crosswinds. Even when I expect to I don't end up needing to dip a wing and touch down on one main first. 

 

My M20E slips OK if I keep up 90 mph so shorter fields of about 2000 ft are possible, but interesting. My shortest so far was 2400 ft with just two of us in it and I had plenty of runway left. Speed control must be tighter than with a Cessna. I didn't buy it for short field work of course.

 

Mooneys are airport planes and great for long cross countrys. I don't think there's such a thing as more cross country value for the dollar if you don't need to carry big loads or more than 4 people. Only gliders have a better glide ratio if you need it. They're slippery enough that one can exceed the red line but not so bad that I've had a problem with it in descent.

 

I'll be keeping mine till I fail the medical. But a little taildragger and seaplane time on the side would be fun too.

 

Dave

[Hank]

Transition training will cover correct speeds and power settings, and you'll find a Mooney to be more difficult to slow down than your Maule. I always say a Mooney will go down or slow down, but not both. Low drag makes us efficient, but it brings its own challenges.

Good luck in your search!

[Taildragon]

Hi Taildragon! I'm based in Denver too (KAPA). I have a Mooney Acclaim and a Vans RV-8. There are definitely breezy days out here when the RV-8 stays in the hangar but I have no problem launching with the Mooney. I've approached Centennial in some pretty gusty conditions over the past 8 years and I've always been able to set down except for one time, when a microburst crashed down on the airport when I was on 5-mile final and I decided to go hold for a while 20 miles southeast until things settled down.

 

As far as transition time goes, my first Mooney was a 1998 Encore (K model) that I bought in 2000 from a dealer in Minneapolis. One of their pilots flew back with me to Oakland, CA (I was living in the Bay Area at that time). We did 3 legs in 10 hours... half VFR, half hard IFR, and by the time we got to Oakland I felt very comfortable with the Mooney.

 

Where are you based? Maybe we can meet sometime.

Hey Joe - I Own a hanger out at KFTG - I'd certainly trade you some time in my Maule!

[Mooneymite]

I think I'd rather transition a Maule pilot to a Mooney than a Mooney pilot to a Maule. I think you'll find the transition easy/fun. Control the airspeed and land tail-low! No problem.

[Taildragon]

I think I'd rather transition a Maule pilot to a Mooney than a Mooney pilot to a Maule. I think you'll find the transition easy/fun. Control the airspeed and land tail-low! No problem.

 

It's funny - I hear it a lot: "If you can fly a Maule, you can fly...."

 

The Maule is a spectacular STOL performer, stalls are a non event, great for hands off flying but it will bite you quick on touch-down and rollout.  Can't have it all, I guess...

[rbridges]

It's funny - I hear it a lot: "If you can fly a Maule, you can fly...."

 

The Maule is a spectacular STOL performer, stalls are a non event, great for hands off flying but it will bite you quick on touch-down and rollout.  Can't have it all, I guess...

 

IMO, if you can land a tailplane, you can land a mooney.  Like Gus said, control the speed over the #'s and they land just fine.  Remember to drop the gear!

[KSMooniac]

Your transition time will be determined by your insurance policy (negotiable) and your skill level.  As far as just handling the plane and landing it consistently well, you'll likely be very comfortable in 5 hours or less.  If you're instrument rated I would encourage you to extend the checkout to 10 hours and do some instrument work in the Mooney to work on power settings and configurations for various instrument tasks.  Finding an experienced Mooney CFI will pay off greatly, and there are a few around Denver I believe.  (Cleon Biter is one that comes to mind immediately.)

 

If you're not instrument rated yet, then I would strongly encourage you to start working on it so you can maximize the utility of a fine XC bird like a Mooney!

 

Good luck with the hunt.

 

PS All American Aircraft in San Antonio (major Mooney dealer/broker) has two seemingly outstanding F models listed right now.  Higher prices than average, but they look to be very good values IMO.  Lots of 201 parts and updates.

[MooneyBob]

I am still in the transition for the insurance purposes. I need another 3 hours ( maybe today) of solo. I did fly Arrow before and found nothing hard about the Mooney. I have landed it at 80 knots over the fence very first time and it floated a little. We have long long runway here. Then I practiced more and got to the 70 knots. Very smooth landings.  I exit to the taxiway before 2000' mark every time.

Two weeks ago I have practiced xwind landings as we had 17knots G 22 knots at 90 degrees to the runway. I didn't really want to do that and my policy for now is no flying over 13 knots but my instructor convinced me and we did 12 landings on that windy day. Full rudder every time but it's doable. And actually I really enjoyed it. I felt like snowboarding. I wouldn't try it again just myself if I didn't have to. But I it was good practice in case of emergency.

[testwest]

Hi Taildragon

 

You are getting some really good advice here. Question, how much retractable gear time do you have? That may be a factor in your transition training.

 

Also, I guess you have ruled out an early M20J? My first M20 was a 1970 F model, but our partnership soon progressed to a 1978 M20J. It looks like prices for early M20Js are down in F territory at this time....

[Taildragon]

Hi Taildragon

 

You are getting some really good advice here. Question, how much retractable gear time do you have? That may be a factor in your transition training.

 

Also, I guess you have ruled out an early M20J? My first M20 was a 1970 F model, but our partnership soon progressed to a 1978 M20J. It looks like prices for early M20Js are down in F territory at this time....

 

I have not ruled out a J model - If I could find one similarly equipped to my Maule, I would love to own one.  It just seems like the K's are a better value.  I do not have much retract training.  A few hours in a Cardinal and a few hours in a 182RG.  I have gone around the patch 3 times in a Mooney M20C and really liked it (The F had a little more leg-room than the C).

 

My plan was to buy a Cirrus SR22 and have about 10 hours in them.  I would buy the Cirrus, but the insurance is totally crazy (High incidence of the hull being totaled out is what my broker said).

 

Great advice - Really appreciate it.

 

Bottom line sounds like if you fly them by the numbers, should not be a problem.

 

Jim

[rob]

Just FYI, the F and C have the same dimensions for the front seats; the additional legroom of the mid-body is for the rear seat folks!

[Taildragon]

You'll have no trouble with the transition into a Mooney.  A little bit more attention to descent planning and approach speeds are the things to concentrate on.  That and remembering to put the gear down, of course. 

 

That having been said, I have a couple hundred hours in R182s.  They are as fast as a vintage Mooney, have more room and useful load, and also have very good short field capabilities.  All at the expense of a little bit higher fuel burn and a more maintenance-prone landing gear mechanism.  I'm not sure what your STOL requirements are exactly, but instead of owning both a Maule and a Mooney might you be able to get away with just owning a R182?  It would be much more cost effective than having two airplanes that you have to both maintain and maintain proficiency in.

 

Welcome aboard!

 

Jim  

 

I've thought a bunch about this question... I do a ton of back-country flying, fishing, hunting, trips to AK, etc...  The Maule is a great platform for "Fun" flying.  My son enjoys the "Fun" flying, as well (he's 10); My wife and daughter want to spend as little time in the air as possible.  I would also use the plane for work and so a little speed will go a long way. The stuff I fly into in the Maule would eat a 182's lunch!

 

I kinda look at it like this:  If I take good care of the airplanes, I'll be able to get my money back out of them, and so then the question becomes operating costs - The Mooney and the Maule have about the same fuel consumption and both are relatively cheap to maintain... The 182RG will be more expensive for parts and and will burn a few more GPH...  

 

Dunno...  If I can afford to keep both, I will. 

[Bob_Belville]

I joined a small flying club that owned a PA28-140 and an M20E right after I got my PPL (1969). When I started flying their Mooney I had 53 TT all in C150, C172, PA28-140, Zero complex/retractable. I flew 5 times, 5.8 hrs, in the Mooney with the club safety officer and was good to go. Had I been more experienced I suspect the transition would have been less.

 

Your insurance company will probably have the last word but you won't need more than a few hours to feel comfortable in our great little aeroplanes. 

[rbridges]

I've thought a bunch about this question... I do a ton of back-country flying, fishing, hunting, trips to AK, etc...  The Maule is a great platform for "Fun" flying.  My son enjoys the "Fun" flying, as well (he's 10); My wife and daughter want to spend as little time in the air as possible.  I would also use the plane for work and so a little speed will go a long way. The stuff I fly into in the Maule would eat a 182's lunch!

 

I kinda look at it like this:  If I take good care of the airplanes, I'll be able to get my money back out of them, and so then the question becomes operating costs - The Mooney and the Maule have about the same fuel consumption and both are relatively cheap to maintain... The 182RG will be more expensive for parts and and will burn a few more GPH...  

 

Dunno...  If I can afford to keep both, I will. 

 

perfect scenario would be a partnership with an F/J owner that would like partial ownsership in the Maule.

[The-sky-captain]

Hey Joe - I Own a hanger out at KFTG - I'd certainly trade you some time in my Maule!

I'm based in Arkansas but am in and out of KFTG about every other month to snowboard in the winter and climb in the summer. I have a J and will be up there the weekend of the 22nd of this month if you want to take a look at it, sit in it etc. I love the J as it is a great compromise in both speed and efficiency. As for the winds I was the only plane in a couple weeks ago at KFTG when they had KDEN shut down due to the winds. The J handled it fine at 30 off the nose gusting to around 50. Good luck with your search and let me know if you want to take a look at PX.

[Taildragon]

perfect scenario would be a partnership with an F/J owner that would like partial ownsership in the Maule.

 

That would be perfect!  The crazy thing is, I don't even trust my CFI to land the Maule, so a partner would have to spend a ton of time getting proficient.  It took me almost 200 landings to feel safe enough to take my kids up.  Last time my CFI went up with me, we flew over to La Garita (wicked approach and no go around) and then to Hopper Springs (1,500 Dirt) and back to KFTG (home) when we were entering downwind, I asked him if he wanted to practice a landing, he said one word: "Nope!"  The thing is easy to land on dirt or grass, but pavement is a bear!

[Taildragon]

I'm based in Arkansas but am in and out of KFTG about every other month to snowboard in the winter and climb in the summer. I have a J and will be up there the weekend of the 22nd of this month if you want to take a look at it, sit in it etc. I love the J as it is a great compromise in both speed and efficiency. As for the winds I was the only plane in a couple weeks ago at KFTG when they had KDEN shut down due to the winds. The J handled it fine at 30 off the nose gusting to around 50. Good luck with your search and let me know if you want to take a look at PX.

 

Sky Captain - Thank you!  If you have the time, I'll meet you out there and buy you a cup of coffee.  

[The-sky-captain]

Sky Captain - Thank you!  If you have the time, I'll meet you out there and buy you a cup of coffee.

Sounds good. Shoot me a pm with your email or phone number and I'll keep in touch on arrival time

[Joe Zuffoletto]

That would be perfect!  The crazy thing is, I don't even trust my CFI to land the Maule, so a partner would have to spend a ton of time getting proficient.  It took me almost 200 landings to feel safe enough to take my kids up.  Last time my CFI went up with me, we flew over to La Garita (wicked approach and no go around) and then to Hopper Springs (1,500 Dirt) and back to KFTG (home) when we were entering downwind, I asked him if he wanted to practice a landing, he said one word: "Nope!"  The thing is easy to land on dirt or grass, but pavement is a bear!

 

I bought my RV-8 last summer and sometimes I wonder what the hell I was thinking. I'm still trying to figure out how to land it... haven't had a good one yet. Like you I feel like I'll need about 200 landings before I'll take anyone up in it.