ILS and flaps

[AndyFromCB]

Ok,

 

Flaps or no flaps on a ILS down to minimums? If no flaps, what power settings and speeds are being used in a long body. If flaps, how much and when from IAP and what power settings. Interested in long body owners opinions and techniques. I'm trying to polish my instrument procedures after letting my skills deteriorate last year due to only flying about 60 hours last year and managing to score a total a 2 hours of actual.

 

Plan is to test out of different techniques and report back.

 

Andy

[David Mazer]

I know your only asking about long body Mooneys and mine is a mid length but these numbers seem to work just about everytime.  On the localizer prior to final appraoch fix 20"/full prop, 1-1/2 dot above the glideslope reduce power to 15", lower the gear, wait for flap speed and then takeoff flaps.  On glideslope intersection nose over slightly and airspeed will slowly decay from 110 to about 90 kts IAS at about 400 ft.  Seems like magic.

[Mooneymite]

Short body:

 

Generally, configured, and at approach speed at the top of the hilll.  Stabilized from the FAF inbound.

 

It all depends on the situation.

 

Some of the airports need you to keep your speed up.  If you're uncomfortable, say "unable", but what works for me is to stay clean down the glideslope until 500' above minimums, then put the gear down first and work the flaps down.  The big caveat with this technique is you don't want to be caught faster than gear speed at 500 above....that would not be fun.

[aaronk25]

Forget the flaps until you break out. Even at 200ft there's lots of time to get flaps out should you decide to land with them.

[Hank]

Why do you use gear first on a fast approach? On my C, Vg = 120; Vfo = 125.

On a normal short-body approach, I have Takeoff flaps down before IAF, and drop gear 1-1/2 dots high to come right down the glide slope.

[PLN_FXR]

Andy - lots of decent responses above.  I believe you'll have your best success with 1/2 flaps prior to FAF inbound, dropping the gear at FAF.  Be wary of bringing flaps in late in the approach, as any tendency to balloon will put you right back into the low overcast.  Mooneys land great with 1/2 flaps anyway - short, mid, or long-body.  

 

There are always exceptions, though - so you're doing it right, experimenting with different configurations.  For example, you don't want the gear hanging out longer than necessary in heavy icing conditions. (One would question the wisdom of an approach to minimums in heavy ice, but on occasion the weather forecasts are WAY off base, and one has to do what they have to do.)

[Mooneymite]

Why do you use gear first on a fast approach? On my C, Vg = 120; Vfo = 125.

On a normal short-body approach, I have Takeoff flaps down before FAF, and drop gear 1-1/2 dots high to come right down the glide slope.

Hank, I presume you are referring to my post?

 

This has to do with those "keep your speed up" situations....not a normal approach.  I stay clean and can come down the glideslope at a speed above gear/flap speed, but when I start to slow, I prefer the gear first because it is pure drag with very little pitch change.  I extend the flaps gradually as the aircraft slows and the trim changes are very manageable.  I've found this works best for me, but obviously it is just one technique.

[flyboy0681]

Forget the flaps until you break out. Even at 200ft there's lots of time to get flaps out should you decide to land with them.

 

Definitely not what my instructor taught me to do. 

[Piloto]

It is always a good idea to have the plane properly trimmed in the landing configuration before MDA. This allows for proper stabilization and trimming, specially if it is a coupled approach. For the Mooney this would be about three miles on final or 1,000ft AGL. Is better to lower the flaps in steps to allow the autopilot proper trimming. You may opt for no flaps but keep in mind that runway visibility is better with flaps extended and the stall speed is higher with no flaps. If there are strong crosswind conditions you may raise the flaps just before touch down.

 

José 

[laytonl]

I like to drop the gear about a mile or so prior to the FAF and use 20" to maintain 90 kts. At the FAF fix, it's flaps 15 and 15"mp and this will maintain 90kts and stay on the GS ( the mp may be 14 or 16" depending on conditions.) I go to full flaps once the runway is in sight, or if it's really low, I just land with flaps 15. Lee

[aaronk25]

Definitely not what my instructor taught me to do.

We all got different ways of doing it I guess. Flaps don't make a big difference but I only put them out once the runway is insight as if a go around is needed the trim has to be quickly taken out to keep the nose from pitching up to high once Max power is applied.

Besides in my opinion I think its easier as all that has to be done at FAF is drop gear set power to 15" (17" if there is a more than 15 knots of head wind) and speed will be right around 105mph all the way down.

I'm a big believer in flaps once runway is in sight but when I'm in the soup I believe in being lazy and simplifying things. It's not the ride down I worry about flaps it's the go around and it adds one more step to a process that doesn't have to be there.

Besides the plane flys better cleaner at approach speeds than dragging the flaps all the way down the hill close to flap extension speed.

I don't see any issue with using 1/2 flaps as it's a good compromise, but please tell me people aren't extending flaps to full position at FAF and dragging them all the way down the hill

Just my thoughts....whatever you do practice practice practice.....

Fwiw I take off with take off flaps...

[aaronk25]

Also I'm cheap....dragging the flaps takes gas

[orionflt]

I don't see any issue with using 1/2 flaps as it's a good compromise, but please tell me people aren't extending flaps to full position at FAF and dragging them all the way down the hill

Just my thoughts....whatever you do practice practice practice.....

Fwiw I take off with take off flaps...

I like approach flaps until the runway is made, as you said less to deal with on the go around, but there is also less trimming to do on final if you do put in full flaps. You also have the option of landing with approach flaps if there is too much going on.

[fluffysheap]

Gear down at FAF.  I usually use half flaps somewhere after the FAF but well above minimums.  I wouldn't use them in ice, but fortunately, have not had to fly an instrument approach with ice.  Going around with half flaps presents no problem (they are, after all, an approved takeoff setting). 

 

I don't want to have to deal with major geometry changes with only 200 feet to go, so the choices are, basically, flaps on approach or no flaps on landing.  Except with ice, I feel like at least partial flaps are valuable because of the improved touchdown attitude.  So far, I have always chosen to put the gear down at some point

 

One reason to put the flaps out fairly early, on an ILS, is that vertical guidance is very precise at lower altitudes.  Near minimums, needle full deflection is something like 20 vertical feet.  Put the flaps out too late, and you might go right off the glideslope.

[romair]

Going through my IFR rating right now. The way my instructor teaches is fully configured for landing prior to FAF (except gear). This includes 1/2 flaps. Half a mile from FAF, gear down. He is not very keen on making anymore changes after FAF. His reasoning on not touching the flaps after FAF is that if you get asymmetric flap deflection you are IMC, close to the ground, which will make things interesting fast.

IFR training is kicking my butt right now...just saying

Stefan

[Hank]

IFR training is kicking my butt right now...just saying

Stefan

Stick with it, you will eventually finish up. It is really worth the effort. Try to get as much actual time as you can foggles just aren't the same. Try to get enough actual to experience disorientation once, too, it's a different feeling.

[Bob - S50]

Here is a reference I found in another thread:

 

http://72.10.105.106/tms/misc/MAPAMooneyManual.pdf

 

I have the manual on my computer and the 'by the numbers' section gives configuration and power settings for all models.

 

Bob

[gjkirsch]

I will vary my approach depending on first weather and second the airport environment I am flying into.  If I am going in anywhere near minimums:

 

1) Slow to 140 idicated prior to intercepting the glideslope.

2) Once I intercept, I will drop the gear.  That brings the speed down to 120

3) Continuing to back off the power, at 1 mile drop the first notch of flaps, 90 knots

4) At breakout drop the second knotch

 

If I am just clearing a layer and there is 1500 foot ceilings, I will still slow to 140 at glideslope intercept and continue to reduce power as I am coming down the glideslope but won't drop the gear until after I clear the layer.  

[Jeff_S]

I find myself dropping the gear when I get centered on the glideslope in order to slow down. This is especially important on some of the GPS approaches around here in Atlanta, which have pretty steep glide slope angles from the IF to the FAF.  If I don't drop the gear as soon as I hit the glide slope I'll never begin slow enough once I start going down hill. This also helps me be slow enough to deploy half flaps near the FAF. 

[midlifeflyer]

Definitely not what my instructor taught me to do. 

 

That's ok since it's purely a question of technique not a procedure required by aircraft limitations or safety.

 

Personally, since I fly multiple aircraft types, consistency in procedure is paramount.  From C-172 to A36 Bonanza, I prefer no-flap approaches (with one exception).  With retractable gear, it's gear down at GS intercept on an ILS, but no flaps. 

 

I have indeed found the long-body Mooney (M20J) a bit different in terms of it being more difficult to slow down after reaching minimums than other aircraft and have played with a few variations on the theme. The one that seems to be working pretty well for me is a further power/speed reduction and the addition of flaps in the latter stages of the approach (but still stabilized by 500 AGL). But even that is still tentative.

[Marauder]

I think the critical part of flying a decent approach is that you are stabilized and don't have a need to do something dramatic at any point in the approach. For those with lower gear speeds like mine, I find it easier to drop to approach flaps and stabilize the airplane at 100 KIAS while flying the approach. At the FAF, gear comes down and power adjusted according to the approach needs.

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[Awful_Charlie]

I'm another one in the 'it depends' category.  All being "normal" I'd suggest clean until the descent with the ILS, then gear down to start the descent, and 1st stage of flaps when the speed allows it, and second stage when visual & 'assured of landing'.  However, as already stated, putting in the second stage of flaps makes a bit of a balloon, so if near minimums will have to forgo that and accept the longer ground run. On the other hand, if it's one of those "how long can you maintain 150+KIAS" (my answer, normally to 4 DME if landing) then it's a matter of getting down to gear limiting speed and working the trim like a one handed paper hanger. Then you get something like Sion (sim plate, as Swiss one are a paying sub, I've only done it with an instructor in VMC) where you really don't want to go dragging the flaps for ages (but having the wheels out helps with keeping the speed checked - fortunately a Bravo has a quite high gear limiting speed).

 

There is a risk with not having a SOP, but I try to mitigate this by including my points for gear and flap in the approach brief. Fortunately, I've never ended up with a "non standard" approach to minimums, but in the event that I had to prepare for one, would want to be going as slowly as possible, so it would be gear and full flap very early.  The go around with full flap isn't that bad - the initial climb has a tremendous angle, which is exactly what you want to get away from terrain and obstacles, but you do want to experience it before you need to use it!

[PMcClure]

I have a later model R and I set for landing configuration 1 minute from FAF, that means 1 notch of flaps, gear down, GUMPS and verify altimeter and weather, lights (plane and runway). I set power and pitch for 90 knots. That should be about 13-15" given 500 fpm decent rate at this configuration. I drop the second notch of flaps and adjust power and pitch for landing as necessary. 

[BigTex]

You guy with the higher flap speeds and electric gear have it made. With a Vfo of 100mph it really limits my options. In my case MAPA recommends not using flaps until you go visual. Also on miss approaches I have to climb out initially at Vx otherwise I'm too fast to raise the gear.

[Hondo]

I fly approach level at 2400 RPM, 17" MP and 125 knots.

At .5 nm before the FAF or 1/2 dot below the GS, drop the gear, plane slows to 105 and joins the GS with VSI -500.

Add half flaps and push prop in.

At 400 AGL speed stable at 80 knots.

At 200 AGL or MM,  if missed is required, it's mixture rich, power max, with positive climb, gear up then flaps up.