'87 252/Encore panel upgrade plans

[Bob_Belville]

Bob -- I never knew how bad I had it until I flew with a K owner this past weekend. When he tossed out the gear at around 140 KIAS, I was left salivating in the co-pilot seat. Speed brakes are one piece of equipment I do wish I had. Like you, I have been caught in an awkward position of trying to bleed off airspeed to get the flaps and gear down while on an approach. Not a good situation.

And I have also had the dubious honor on IPCs of bringing CFIIs a large chunk of humble pie when I explained to them that all that rhetoric they said I was spewing about "needing to slow down" wasn't rhetoric.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yeah, in the old days, without SBs, flying a precision approach into a busy airport, holding speed up to play nice with the other kids, meant intercepting the GS traveling well above Vlg. At that point we were trying to slow while descending. Our slick machines were pretty challenging. 10,000' runway helped but you still had to stay on the GS until you could go visual and @ 1/2 mile visibility... I love war stories, would not care to go back. 

[fantom]

I did a writeup on speed brake usage some time ago, that may be of interest.

 

http://www.donkaye.com/donkaye.com/Use_of_Speed_Brakes.html

 

Don, I'm assuming you leave the speed brakes deployed though touch down on those instrument approaches to busy airports, since you don't mention retracting them. Correct?

[fantom]

Yeah, in the old days, without SBs......

 

 

We had Service Bulletins in the 'old days'.

[Bob_Belville]

and Smart Bas..ds

[donkaye]

Don, I'm assuming you leave the speed brakes deployed though touch down on those instrument approaches to busy airports, since you don't mention retracting them. Correct?

I personally retract them at gear speed because the airplane can be slowed to flap and approach speed comfortably without them, and it would not be as efficient an approach having them deployed to touchdown because more power would be required during the approach.  I do "pop" them on touchdown, just like the Commercial Airliners do with their spoilers.  They are effective until about half the touchdown speed from my experience, so why not use them.  Besides they look "cool".

[wishboneash]

If one is willing to accept an initial ballooning of ones altitude, you can get into a lower airspeed regime by going to the back side of the power curve with decent rate of descent (as high as you want depending on how slow you are willing to go in this regime!). It might not seen normal doing this, but certainly possible. I do have SB and use them on occasion.

[donkaye]

If one is willing to accept an initial ballooning of ones altitude, you can get into a lower airspeed regime by going to the back side of the power curve with decent rate of descent (as high as you want depending on how slow you are willing to go in this regime!). It might not seen normal doing this, but certainly possible.

 

My friend, you are playing with fire that can get you into BIG trouble if you are doing that in a Mooney.  Please, nobody on this list should EVER consider doing that.  The laminar flow wing has a much higher slope on the backside of the power curve than the non laminar flow airplanes and your rate of descent can quickly get out of control.

[wishboneash]

My friend, you are playing with fire that can get you into BIG trouble if you are doing that in a Mooney. Please, nobody on this list should EVER consider doing that. The laminar flow wing has a much higher slope on the backside of the power curve than the non laminar flow airplanes and your rate of descent can quickly get out of control.

Probably a poor choice of words saying back side of the power curve (not in the traditional sense anyway) since you are definitely not low and slow with a lot of power added like climbing out of a high DA airport carrying a lot of weight. When one is high and fast in a high energy regime one could lose several thousand feet of altitude by pulling back, reducing MP and slowing to around final approach speed or a bit slower. You are nowhere near stall speed (assuming you are not turning as well). Once at 1000 to 1500 ft AGL, push the nose down return your normal flying to enter the pattern.

[donkaye]

Probably a poor choice of words saying back side of the power curve (not in the traditional sense anyway) since you are definitely not low and slow with a lot of power added like climbing out of a high DA airport carrying a lot of weight. When one is high and fast in a high energy regime one could lose several thousand feet of altitude by pulling back, reducing MP and slowing to around final approach speed or a bit slower. You are nowhere near stall speed (assuming you are not turning as well). Once at 1000 to 1500 ft AGL, push the nose down return your normal flying to enter the pattern.

 

Not a poor choice of words.  If I understand you correctly, you are doing exactly what you said--a no no to my way of thinking.  Notwithstanding a dangerous way to descend, you would be in such a high nose attitude so as not to be able to see ahead of you and thereby create a "hazardous attitude" in more ways that one.  Also, to get in that situation there had to be very poor descent planning.  There are much, much better ways to descend in an emergency or otherwise.

[wishboneash]

Not a poor choice of words.  If I understand you correctly, you are doing exactly what you said--a no no to my way of thinking.  Notwithstanding a dangerous way to descend, you would be in such a high nose attitude so as not to be able to see ahead of you and thereby create a "hazardous attitude" in more ways that one.  Also, to get in that situation there had to be very poor descent planning.  There are much, much better ways to descend in an emergency or otherwise.

 

I agree with the poor forward visibility. I would like to try it for the heck of it: -800ft/min, 80mph at a good altitude. Once I get the AoA installed it should be interesting to see what that shows.

[rbridges]

Do the 650, you are already headed for the poor house. Why should Bob, Bennett, Oscar, me a few others be there all by ourselves?

 

You guys obviously aren't scared of your wives.  

[Bob_Belville]

You guys obviously aren't scared of your wives.  

Well, my wife is getting a new knee tomorrow. I guess everyone has their own priorities.  . 

[Marauder]

You guys obviously aren't scared of your wives.  

 

Oh, we're scared. Scared they will find out what we spent!! Like this morning. My wife finds the box for a bottle of Chivas Regal 18 year old Scotch. Something I bought on Friday afternoon. The conversation goes like this Her: "How long have you had this?" Me: "I bought it a little while ago".

 

Well, my wife is getting a new knee tomorrow. I guess everyone has their own priorities.  . 

 

The way Bob said that, makes me wonder if he capped her...

[Bob_Belville]

Oh, we're scared. Scared they will find out what we spent!! Like this morning. My wife finds the box for a bottle of Chivas Regal 18 year old Scotch. Something I bought on Friday afternoon. The conversation goes like this Her: "How long have you had this?" Me: "I bought it a little while ago".

 

 

The way Bob said that, makes me wonder if he capped her...

Twisted mind! Or you live too close to Jersey.

[Marauder]

Twisted mind! Or you live too close to Jersey.

 

I blame it on living in Jersey for most of the 80s.

 

Hoping for the best on the surgery and recovery. They have come a long way with joint replacements over the past decade.

[Awful_Charlie]

Well, my wife is getting a new knee tomorrow. I guess everyone has their own priorities.  . 

 

 

The way Bob said that, makes me wonder if he capped her...

 

I thought Bob was implying he had "sphericals" of steel from their last "interface" with his wife's knee!

[Bob_Belville]

I thought Bob was implying he had "sphericals" of steel from their last "interface" with his wife's knee!

Ah, we've deteriorated from twisted to sick.

[fantom]

Ah, we've deteriorated from twisted to sick.

 

Old news, but just discovered

[WorldWiseTrade]

Tim,

 

I upgraded a 79 Bonanza to Aspen PFD/MFD, WAAS, and Garmin 530, SL 30, etc.

 

Several comments:

 

1. My biggest complaint with Aspen is that their solution to training is to purchase a Sporty's video. There is NO simulation available. I'm not a low time PP (15 years in the Airbus), but I forever struggled with currency on the Aspen glass. These advanced glass cockpits are just that, "advanced" and require some training tools. I think Garmin better addresses the training issue than does Aspen. Also I did find the Aspen's aspect ratio to be not optimal, and again Garmin wins. You will be looking at these things often, get something you can see!

 

1a. Ask about integration with your autopilot. If you are planning especially to do coupled approaches, the integration is quite complex. Many "modes" and depending on the approach, many selections to be made, both on the EFIS and on the autopilot. You ay not be aware of the most famous words in the Airbus simulator... "what's it doing now"? Don't believe me, check the Asiana SFO crash, which is 100% related to not setting up the avionics properly. REMEMBER, you will have airliner complexity with ZERO simulator time, so unless you will do initial and recurrent training in the air (quite expensive) there is NO way to practice all the integrations, PFD/MFD to GPS to Autopilot, which differ for ILS, LPV's etc. It is so complex that I made a matrix for cockpit reference.  

 

2. On the cost issue, if you plan to sell the aircraft, I doubt you will recoup your investment. Otherwise, I think a good investment for safety, functionality, etc. Nothing like glass. However, I did keep in my panel outside of the PFD/MFD the round dials. There was room and a good back up IMO.

 

3. WAAS. I would highly recommend it, LPV approaches are everywhere and many places the only way in! Also may be a requirement in the coming years.

 

The other thing you might consider, which I am looking more into at present, is the Garmin GX3 package for LSA and Experimental aircraft. It has all the capability at 1/4 of the price. Not TSO, not legal for IFR flight, but if the steam gauges are left in, may give you practical functionality, augmenting the approved instruments. If you know more about this, I am interested to learn.

 

Happy Flying!

Robert