Night Flying

[robert7467]

When I was working on my PPL, I was doing a bunch of touch and goes with my instructor, then went to home base which has a really wide runway and it transitioned into night. Needless to say, I was flaring about 50' above the runway, and my instructor nearly broke my finger pushing in the throttle for a go around. After the debrief, we came to the conclusion that it was the wide runway illusion.

The week before last, did my 3 full stop night landings for currency to bring passengers with me, and greased them all.

Last Friday, I took 2 passengers and I think I started flaring too high, and she just dropped onto the runway. It could have been because I had more weight than I am used to, or I could have been flaring to high. She didn’t bounce, so I don’t think I landed it on the nose.

Things that I noticed about night approaches and landings:

It seems harder to control airspeed on final.

It’s harder to figure out the height above the runway, and determining when to flare.

The landing wasn’t too bad, but I am concerned for future night flights. I have 20/20 vision. My landing coming back to home base was a greaser, but I also am confident in the 8000’ runway.

Is this something that I will get used to over time? Is there any tips and tricks to avoid this in the future? It could be the extra weight,  because I have had this happen before with the plane loaded during the day.

If the plane is loaded, should I increase my approach speed by 5mph?

 

[rbridges]

I use my landing light to help me.  When it starts casting a glow on the runway, I know I'm getting close to flare height.  Otherwise, my depth perception is pretty challenged.

[Bob - S50]

I've made lots of night landings, but none in our Mooney yet, so take this with a grain of salt.

 

Airspeed control should not be any more difficult at night than during the day.  Its a mental thing.  During the day you can see your progress across the ground.  At night you might not be able to do that depending on what you are flying over.  You are probably flying by what 'feels' right rather than what the airspeed indicator says.  Unless you have reasons to believe otherwise, trust your instruments.  If they aren't indicating what you want, ...make... them indicate what you want.

 

Yes, depth perception is less effective at night.  That's part of the reason night currency is separate from landing currency and why many pilots hate to fly at night.

 

For adding speed?  I wouldn't think you would need to but I'll defer to more experienced Mooney pilots.  A 10% increase in weight would only make about a 3 knot difference in stall speed.  The extra weight might make a slight difference depending on your landing technique.  If you are a 'swap ends at the last minute' kind of guy I'd say it could make a difference.  I'm not that good so I make a long gradual flare.  Or it could depend on when you pull your power.  I watched a video on line of a guy making an IFR approach to PDX in a Mooney.  He pulled the power so early that the stall warning was going off before he even started to flare.  I kept waiting for the crunch but it worked out nicely.  If you are that kind of guy and pull the power based on solo weight, then add two passengers, I'd say that could also make a difference.  If you don't get the stall warning until you are done with the flare, I don't think the weight would matter.

 

Mostly, I'd say you'll just get the whole thing figured out with more practice.

 

Bob

[robert7467]

Thanks... Like most of flying, I guess it just boils down to practice. I am thinking weight had something to do with it. I know the plane handles the same during the day, as it does the night. I think the speed control issue likely stems from focusing on depth perception, when I need to learn to juggle both, which I guess will happen over time.

[chrisk]

I can't say that I am any good at it.  My experience is limited, but I find PAPI really helps. 

[John Pleisse]

Don't worry about it. Go to a wide runway International Airport like GSO (Greenboro, NC)...a 150 foot wide runway with a ton of small GA airplanes landing all day. They all get wide runway illusion...one after another, after another, in broad daylight. Baron's, Mooney's, Cessna's...you name it. They all flare at 40 feet and then the bottom falls out. The guys in the tower must sit there an chuckle all day.

 

Make sure your eyes are way down the runway, don't get fixated on your landing light spot ride some power until she churps.

[aaronk25]

As a crutch you might fly the same numbers across the threshold then reduce power to idle and slowly start the flare but add just a bit of power and extend the landing distance.

What this will let you do is target a airspeed that keeps the planes nose up a few degrees and allows a vertical decent rate to the ground that will allow the plane to be flown on.

I do it all the time. Fly it to the speed just above where it wants to fall out of the sky with the nose up and if it starts falling out from under you just add a touch of power to slow the decent rate.

It should surprise you when the wheels touch.

Or you could fly it like you fly it during the day.....the plane doesn't know the difference.

[jlunseth]

I think everyone has the same issue.  It is not easy to gauge exact vertical distance from the runway at night and the tendency is to flare high and then fall.  I have done it many times myself.  One thing I have learned is to practice.  It takes a little experience to know that the runway is a little further away than you think, and to trust to let the aircraft down until you see quite a bit more of it.  It helps to fly some night landings every know and then.  I find it is a skill that you cannot just leave, and expect it to be there when you come back.

 

When I am a little out of practice I will flare just a little, not as much as if I were at ground level doing a normal landing, and then very slowly pull back as the plane continues to descend.  I am sort of feeling for the runway. 

[aaronk25]

I think everyone has the same issue. It is not easy to gauge exact vertical distance from the runway at night and the tendency is to flare high and then fall. I have done it many times myself. One thing I have learned is to practice. It takes a little experience to know that the runway is a little further away than you think, and to trust to let the aircraft down until you see quite a bit more of it. It helps to fly some night landings every know and then. I find it is a skill that you cannot just leave, and expect it to be there when you come back.

When I am a little out of practice I will flare just a little, not as much as if I were at ground level doing a normal landing, and then very slowly pull back as the plane continues to descend. I am sort of feeling for the runway.

That's why at night unless it's a short field, flying it on to the runway results in the smoothest landing.

[Hank]

Robert,

 

As a rule of thumb, stall speed in the Owner's Manual are at gross weight, a place I fly infrequently and land at even less. You should know your approximate load in the plane [not necessarily the weight].

 

For instance, my useful is 969 lbs. Full fuel is 300 lb, me and "stuff" is about 200. Me, the wife and half tanks is around 600, maybe add some luggage for a trip but not for a burger run, so call landing weight 350-400 below gross.

 

Final approach speed = 1.3Vso = 1.3 x 57 = 74 mph

Over the numbers = 1.2Vso = 1.2 x 57 = 68 mph

 

Wow, reviewing this makes me realize that I'm often 3-5 mph fast, but still no problem at my 3000 x 75 home field.

 

Now, for every 300 lb. below gross, subtract 5 mph from the above. [No, wait, I normally land my C with Takeoff flaps, so stall is 64 mph, so my target of 80 mph final slowing to 70-75 over the numbers is still accurate--70 solo, 75 heavy.]

 

Now you just need to learn two speeds, Final and Numbers. I often think about weight below gross on base leg and adjust my Final speed downward by 3-5 or not. This works day or night.

 

For optical illusions, you just have to keep your eyes downfield. Me, I look at the far treeline . . .

[robert7467]

I am in a M20C

I do around 90-100 on downwind.

When I get to my turn I pull power back to 12, and put full flaps to keep my nose down

And I hold 80 with full flaps, 85 without flaps.

Once I cross the fence, I dont even pay attention to airspeed.

Go into ground effect, flare to bleed off remaining airspeed.

99% of the time she sets down nicely.

 

If I want to make the first turn on the taxiway:

I do 75 MPH on short final.

Aim for the threshold.

Go into ground effect.

Land and make my turn.

 

Since I obatined my PPL, I have been having fun with XC flights 60hrs worth TT 143, and I have been drilling on short/soft TO and Landings, and emergency procedures.

 

I am having a lot of fun with my PPL. There are so many different variables to flying, no 2 flights have been the same.

[robert7467]

It makes me feel much better that I am not the only one with night issues. Now that the time will soon fall back,I am going to do a lot more night practice.

[Jeff_S]

Night flying is a zen thing. You have to be one with your plane, and the best way to do that is practice landing during the day with your eyes closed. Well, just kidding about that last part. But one experience I had with night work came when my landing light went out one evening. I was early in my flying career and and luckily I was with my CFI. We had stopped for gas at an outlying airport outside of Atlanta, and when it was clear that the landing light was not illuminating the runway she just said "okay, no worries, but now I want you to start putting some attention out the side window. Fly it just like normal, but when you see the reflection from the red nav wingtip light then you can start to flare."

 

Works like a charm. Those lights are not that powerful, so you won't get a reflection from them until you're pretty close to the ground. So try it next time and see how well it works. It has the added benefit of giving you confidence you can handle it when your landing light really does go out.

 

Oh, and one other thing I find of immense help on night landing is extended runway lines on your panel GPS (or iPad, if that's your bent). Especially at my home drome where the runway lights are easily lost in the surrounding city lightscape, having those extended centerlines really helps you get lined up on downwind, base and final. If you have 'em and don't have them turned on, I would recommend it.

[chrisk]

As a crutch you might fly the same numbers across the threshold then reduce power to idle and slowly start the flare but add just a bit of power and extend the landing distance.

What this will let you do is target a airspeed that keeps the planes nose up a few degrees and allows a vertical decent rate to the ground that will allow the plane to be flown on.

I do it all the time. Fly it to the speed just above where it wants to fall out of the sky with the nose up and if it starts falling out from under you just add a touch of power to slow the decent rate.

 

This is the crutch I have used since dropping a Cessna 172 on an 11,800 x 200 foot runway for a night landing.  (KOSC)  And related to another thread, this is a good reason to be in a trainer until you get your PPL.

[robert7467]

I had a landing light go out as well. My instructor did a slow decent, and kept popping the nose back like a fishing pole. He then had me do 3 no light landings as well. I guess practice make perfect. When I said I dropped her on the runway, it wasnt as bad as it sounds. The passengers thought it was a good landing, but I knew better.

[DanM20C]

I fly a lot at night, especial during the winter months when it seems we have so little daylight.  I like to focus on my intended landing spot when on final, then as I start to flare I shift my focus to the red lights on the end runway.  With me focusing on the end of the runway it is much easier to use my peripheral vision to judge my height above the runway.  With a little practice it works like a charm.  And if my wheels don't touch when I think they will, I'll just add 100 rpm or so and let the airplane settle in rather than having the bottom drop out.  

 

The good news in all this, is the remedy is practice and I can't think of a better way to spend an evening that flying around the patch in a Mooney. 

 

Dan

[aviatoreb]

Hi Robert, Misjudging flare height is a common situation when we don't fly regularly at night.  I rarely fly after dark, as I make it a point to be on the ground by the end of civil twighlight.  But I find that even at dusk the visual cues change regarding when to flare.  I am a mid time pilot of almost 700hrs and instrument rated for almost 600hrs.  I deal with this problem by essentially slapping myself on the face and sitting up straight and being mentally prepared not to make this error that I would otherwise make if I were to flare as if it were daylight.  Being well aware of the potential problem, and concentrating, I land properly when the lighting and appearance are different from what I am used to.

[robert7467]

Thank you guys! I guess I will just keep practicing.

[mooniac58]

I didn't read the whole topic so apologies if I am repeating what might have been said earlier.  My CFI during my PPL training taught me to look at the runway end lights at the far end of the runway - if you learn to use those it really does help - and as you might transition to a taller airplane it should not change things.

 

Practice makes perfect!  Oh yeah, and even though I have 100+ night landings they still tend to suck at a much higher ratio than my day landings.

[201er]

I deal with this problem by essentially slapping myself on the face...

Robert, mind extra close attention to this piece of advice. Apply in unrestrained moderation and repeat as necessary until you get it right.

[aaronk25]

After removing my cowl I forgot to hook up the landing light (xevision HID quick connect) and coming in to Rochester MN the darn touch down lights weren't on  (although I could have asked them to turn them on) and with a 150ft. wide runway, its a bit hard to judge the distance between my butt and the ground, so after coming across the runway threshold at normal speed I arrested the decent at what I thought was 10' off and set a low per setting at a rate that held air speed the same, allowed a nose up attitude and a 200fpm or so decent and just flew it straight until the wheels touched, then power to idle.  

Always surprises me when the wheels touch.  I'll have to give the glow of the navlight/strobe a try too!

[N201MKTurbo]

I find that practicing landing with no landing light helps a lot. If you flare when the runway edge lights look level and it appears that your wheels are even with the top of the runway lights it seems to work out just right.

 

My M20F would routinly blow the landing light when I landed with it turned on. I got tired of replacing the light, so I started turning it off on short final and turning it back on on roll out. I never blew another landing light. After 30 years of doing this I find it strange to land with the light on. Local controllers sometime ask if I'm OK when I turn it off. The rules don't say that you have to land with a landing light, they just say that you have to have one.

[RocketAviator]

Two things, one as I stated on another topic, my landing light went out on an approach in IMC and I had to land at an unfamiliar airport without a landing light at night.... (one reason I don't like the GE4509 bulb... but that is another story and no longer an issue with LED's).

I highly recommend training for night landings with and WITHOUT a landing light (especially if you have the old incandescent bulbs..), it paid off for me and like the other member noted previously, knowing your power settings and good control will make it almost seem like you don't need a landing light... Yea it really works, or at least it did for me the one time I really needed it... I felt like I was sweating bullets but it worked!

The other item that I learned in the Mooney PPP and now use and used when I had to land without a landing light was the use of Oxygen when I fly at night... even in the local pattern WOW it really makes a difference in depth and clarity night vision...

Dont think so go try it, turn it on when you begin your final turn on your Oxygen....  and watch the runway get almost instantly clearer!

[aviatoreb]

Robert, mind extra close attention to this piece of advice. Apply in unrestrained moderation and repeat as necessary until you get it right.

 

Why do I feel as if I was quoted out of context?!  :-O

 

Yer laughing now 201er, but you haven't tried it.  Try it - slap yourself in the face then sit up straight and focus and come back and tell me you didn't grease the landing.

Better yet - tell you what -  I will be in Morristown, NJ then Newark on Thursday evening - come by and I will be happy to slap you myself.

[Raygun15E]

Night landings are sometimes overthought. I'm guilty of it at times. From the front seat, I usually don't have any issues. Heck, I landed downrange with the plane blacked out (I forgot to turn on the landing light on short final) with no problem.  Although, I have to admit I had a flight where I forgot to flare the Strike Eagle and had the opportunity to log two landings that night...

I like the idea of using the wingtip position lights. I'll have to give that try next time I fly nights from the RCP.  Practice and recency definitely help with the night landings.