LOP in the Check Ride

[pinerunner]

I see a lot of LOP believers here in Mooneyspace and count myself in as kind of a poor cousin (GAMI spread 0.8 GPH and still haven't bought GAMI's yet; tight budget). One thing I've heard is the the typical examiner in a check ride is likely to grief (or even fail you) you if he sees you using LOP techniques to manage your plane. I'll be taking my IFR check ride in the next year with any luck and I wonder if any of you have run into this.

 

Dave

[jetdriven]

Just run it at peak EGT below 75% power for the check ride which is in the Lycoming Operators Manual to avoid any discussion.

[Shadrach]

If you have a .08GPH Gami spread on a stock Lyc A1A. I'd investigate other issues like vac leaks or injector issues. The majority of the IO 4 cyl Lycs are close enough to run LOP sans GAMIs.

 

 My instructor couldn't care less what I do with the mixture as long as I fly the plane well. He's well aware of the fact that I am a total dork when it comes to all things mechanical and has enlisted my help on parting out a number of AC.  That being said. If you have a real ball breaker, just run full rich or 100ROP per the manual. I have flown with new instructors and asked them if they have a problem with me running LOP for the ride. All have said "your airplane, run it your way."  

 

The only exception to this was when I was doing a weekend IFR written prep class at Hartford Co Airport (not my base).  At lunch, I was talking with some of the local airport bums one of whom was a a local instructor. I was asking a Comanche owner about his fuel burn and engine ops.  The instructor joined the discussion and started prattling on and on about burnt valves and cracked cylinders and closed his little diatribe with:

 

"there may be some who can run their engines that way, but it's dangerous and bad procedure. I'm just not smart enough to run an airplane LOP."

 

I was ready to explain the error of his thinking, but thought better of it and simply said "You're probably right".

 

I don't think he realized I was referring to his assessment of his own intelligence.

[201er]

I don't remember for sure, but I think I flew LOP on my instrument check ride. I don't think the examiner even noticed either way. I guess he was impressed that I could continue flying the instruments while fine tuning the engine controls. The big advantage was that I had already logged over 100 hours flying my Mooney VFR and was comfortable with the plane so the only novelty was the instrument flying.

 

That said, if you are taking private pilot checkride, it's better to play it safe and stupid. As an unlicensed pilot you're not going to win an argument against an examiner.

[1964-M20E]

Same here the examiner nor the instructor commented on how I managed the engine their concern was my flying in simulated IMC.

[OR75]

Let say the check ride is 2 hours ... How many gallons is that ? $20-30 worth of gas ?

I am thinking your DE is charging you several hundreds ?

Get your ticket and move on ...

[Hank]

The DPE won't expect you to fly your Mooney full rich for the entire checkride. Unless your engine monitor is in front of him, how will he know how you're leaning? My single EGT is low on the left, the same place others have monitors, but obviously not 730/930 models.

Just fly the plane, stay in control and make it do what you want it to do. My IFR checkride was a gusty day, 220@12G19 190V320 for Runway 23. It made my excursions less noticeable and my corrections more obvious, but you should talk through everything you do for the DPE's benefit anyway.

[Hank]

Let say the check ride is 2 hours ... How many gallons is that ? $20-30 worth of gas ?

I am thinking your DE is charging you several hundreds ?

Get your ticket and move on ...

2 hours X 9 gph = 18 gallons @ $5.60 =$101 in fuel. An F run ROP may use 6-8 gallons more, or $135-146 in fuel. That's a third of what my fee was.

[John Pleisse]

Don't broadcast it and I'd bet you nobody would notice or care, but it is believable. After all, it usurps the POH and Lyc operating procedure. Oh wait...did I just say that?

[OR75]

What gph do you use when LOP ?

[Will W]

With all those power and altitude changes, it would be very unwise since LOP is more for straight and level with no altitude/power changes and very not forgiving if you forget to enritchen. This is a flight with 3 approaches at a minimum and unusual attitudes in the majority of the flight.

Do it on your 2 hour cross country, not on a flight with multiple approaches back to back.

My 2 cents.

[201er]

If you expect to fly xcountry IFR LOP, then why shouldn't you be able to pass the maneuvers on the ride LOP?

[DS1980]

Ask around and go with the instructor that allows it. If an instructor doesn't allow LOP, does he/she also believe it is fairies that makes an airplane fly?

 

But honestly, an instructor that doesn't understand LOP does not know enough firewall forward to have an opinion on it. It makes you wonder what other prejudices they bring with them.

 

On my private check ride, my examiner picked a spot on the runway and said to land within + or - 200 feet of that spot. I chose -200 feet because we just got done with short field operations. When I landed it spot on he told me to taxi back and that I have failed. I asked him why and he said because it was totally unintentional and no student pilot can perform spot landings yet. I had to show him again. I left 10 minutes later with my temp certificate. Weird stuff man!

 

Don't roll over and play dead to bad instructors.

[Will W]

Your checkride isn't about giving you much time between approaches, with lots of climbs and descents. If you want to go LOP and then climb, descend, and change power settings, that is your business, but I'm saying with all the approaches, it's not going to be worth it to go through the entire leaning process... Because you are supposed to do it for each unique altitude or power setting. The examiner will give you a lot to do and enough time to do those things.

Now yes, it shows great airmanship to say you need more time to do things to ATC, examiner, CFIs, etc. but don't keep him constantly waiting... That's also not what you want.

I just see someone needing to ask for a hold between every approach because they were busy finding LOP by doing the whole process and didn't get configured for the next approach with freq, course, briefing the approach, changing freqs.

Long story short, if you got time, do the whole LOP like you want, but, don't expect much free time to do so though and if you have to do a quick lean (ie lean the mixture back a bit not using a EGT) that's fine too.

A lot will be coming at you, prioritize!

[mike_elliott]

I see a lot of LOP believers here in Mooneyspace and count myself in as kind of a poor cousin (GAMI spread 0.8 GPH and still haven't bought GAMI's yet; tight budget). One thing I've heard is the the typical examiner in a check ride is likely to grief (or even fail you) you if he sees you using LOP techniques to manage your plane. I'll be taking my IFR check ride in the next year with any luck and I wonder if any of you have run into this.

 

Dave

After the new PTS standards are put in place, the DE's wont have time to bust you on such things as engine management, they will have already got you on something else. Seriously, I have not had any of my students come back with reports of a DE or FAA flight examiner giving anyone grief about engine management technique on and IFR or Commercial checkride. The ride is short enough and busy enough typically that engine management preference doesn't come under scrutiny. Some old school DE guys probably do think that LOP is the work of the devil, but in reality, air cooled internal combustion engines themselves are the work of the devil, ROP or LOP.

[201er]

Long story short, if you got time, do the whole LOP like you want, but, don't expect much free time to do so though and if you have to do a quick lean (ie lean the mixture back a bit not using a EGT) that's fine too.

Are you saying it takes longer to lean LOP than it does ROP? Or are you suggesting to skip leaning and leave the mixture full rich the entire flight?

 

It doesn't take that long to get into a "close enough" LOP setting, especially if you know your plane and set the power low. For example if I were told to briefly level off and demonstrate some sort of maneuver, I could level off, pull RPM back to 2400, pull mixture back to 8gph and good enough. Is it 20LOP or 80LOP? If you are doing it briefly, who cares? The engine is cool and you're not wasting fuel. Or coming into a hold, pull throttle back to 20" and RPM 2100, lean below 6gph and leave it till there's time to fine tune it.

 

If you know how to manage your engine while flying VFR, quickly setting it at a ballpark LOP setting is EASY and quick.

[jetdriven]

Thats it, like Mike says,  just set the EGT to 1450 or so and roll on.  Most of my instrument practice is around 18-23" or so, If you get time, tweak the mixture to near peak. a few tenths of a GPH can be tolerated for short term.  Just fly the airplane first, engine management is secondary. Dont focus on it.

[Will W]

201ER, Wait, you want to ballpark LOP and not a full procedure? Just shooting for a GPH every time, every day?

That won't end well

[201er]

201ER, Wait, you want to ballpark LOP and not a full procedure? Just shooting for a GPH every time, every day?

That won't end well

Why's that? If you shoot for 8gph or less, you're below 65% power so it can't hurt anything regardless of where your mixture is. I'll tweak the mixture when I have time but if ATC wants me to level off for a minute and then continue climb, I'll just pull it back below 10gph depending on my altitude/setting and leave looking at EGTs until the cruise level off.

[jetdriven]

Below 60% power or so, you dont have enough gasoline on the fire to get it too hot. At 50% power, it runs even cooler.

[M016576]

No harm in asking your instructor what his standards are prior to the flight. This isn't "stump the chump", it's an evaluation of your ability to meet standards. Those standards are not and cannot be "hidden" or a "surprise". Just ask your FE how he / she expects you to manage your power plant. They will give you an honest answer. If they don't, get one that does prior to flying with them!

[Bartman]

My CFII had no problem with LOP during training. I asked the DPE and he had no problem with LOP operations. He said run your airplane the way you normally do. With that being said, I didn't make a big deal of it. I just set 2300 RPM and did the big mixture pull to 8gpm.

[PMcClure]

I didn't have much time to worry about LOP or ROP on my check ride. All of it was done below 3500'. There were no cruise operations. Also, you are PIC in a check ride and you are in charge. I told my DE up front what he was allowed to touch and not touch and not to distract me on approach. I think you get more points for acting like PIC with at least my DE. 

[Shadrach]

I didn't have much time to worry about LOP or ROP on my check ride. All of it was done below 3500'. There were no cruise operations. Also, you are PIC in a check ride and you are in charge. I told my DE up front what he was allowed to touch and not touch and not to distract me on approach. I think you get more points for acting like PIC with at least my DE.

Ops below 3500 is where I find LOP to give the biggest bang for the buck. My bird will burn a lot less gas LOP at 1500ft than it does ROP and it stays nice and cool. But then many folks are uncomfortable running LOP above 65%, I'm not one of them... I often climb LOP on hot days to keep temps down.

[PMcClure]

I'm just saying there wasn't a lot of time to work on perfect mixture settings on my check ride. The only discussion was on final and missed with GUMPS check. My DE did want to see proper mixture and prop full forward on final approach.